I HAD A DREAM OR HOW I REALIZED THAT I MAY HAVE BEEN WRONG./ PART 2 sort of

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 167074

Carol:
> If Snape really killed Dumbledore (rather than faking an AK or
> whatever) then he had no choice but to use Avada Kedavra, the Killing
> Curse, the curse that the DEs would expect him to use. Anything else
> would be suspect. And dead is dead; if Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill
> him to prevent Snape from dying himself (with terrible consequences
> for Draco, Harry, and the WW), it doesn't matter whether Snape used an
> AK or sent him off the tower to die from the fall. The AK would
> actually be kinder.
> 
> There are different kinds of murder. 

Jen:   People talk about seeing the 'beats' for a situation and all I'm saying
is I haven't seen any beats yet that will lead Harry to understand your last
point there, that there are different kinds of murder.  In his mind Lupin
and Sirius would have been killers if they acted on their intentions in POA.
Draco would have been a killer if he'd cast an AK at Dumbledore on the tower.
Snape was a killer because Harry thinks he cast an AK at Dumbledore.  

Harry has always been portrayed as very literal in that repsect.  After
hearing the prophecy he believed he would be a 'murderer or victim' in
respect to Voldemort, but despite the fact that Dumbledore told Harry
he believes the prophecy means one will kill the other, DD doesn't 
proceed to train Harry how to kill or use an AK in his quest to rid the
world of Voldemort. 

Even if Harry is now a warrior walking into the ring with his head
held high instead of being dragged in, he is never shown getting past
the words to think how he might actually kill Voldemort.  Instead,
the beat I see in HBP is Harry watching a young man like himself
learn from his own mentor that 'you are not a killer' and 'killing is
not nearly as easy as the innocent believe.' (chap.27, pp. 546-548,
UK ed.)  Those are the words I expect to come back to Harry when
finds himself in the situation Draco was in, to kill or be killed.
Those are the two whom I expect to be compared, Draco and Harry.

I'm not disagreeing with some of your other arguments about a set-up
between Harry and Snape; I'm only saying this is the hurdle to get across
before the other points can sink in for Harry.  I'm sure there are believeable
ways for JKR to make this happen if that's her story. 

Carol:
> Given Dumbledore's attitude toward death, "Severus, please . . ."
> cannot mean that he's begging Snape to spare him. He appears to be
> dying, in any case. And since *Snape does not raise his wand*, even
> after Amycus tells him that the boy can't do it and Dumbledore says
> "Severus" in a pleading tone, even after Snape meets DD's eyes and his
> face takes on that expression of revulsion (surely at the deed, not at
> Dumbledore) and (self?) hatred, until Dumbledore says, "Severus,
> please . . . ." 

Jen:  All I'm saying is we have no reason to believe Dumbledore condones
using an AK.  We know he's not afraid to die.  We know he is more than
willing to sacrifice himself.  We know he is willing to place the good of the 
community over the good of one.  We don't yet have canon where DD
states the use of an AK is considered okay if the end is good enough.

Carol:
> I don't think we underestimate Harry if we assume that understanding
> such circumstances and such motives is beyond his comprehension. I
> think that he will and must learn to understand, forgive, and even
> trust Severus Snape. I don't, however, expect Harry or Snape ever to
> like one another.

Jen:  I'm not underestimating Harry.  I'm pointing out the canon available 
to show how JKR has constucted his moral belief system so far.  She can
change the course she is on, but I haven't seen evidence for that happening
yet.