I HAD A DREAM OR HOW I REALIZED THAT I MAY HAVE BEEN WRONG./ PART 2 sort of

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 167140

Sidenote: This is a delayed (and amended) post that accidentally got
sent to the person addressed rather than to the list. <blush!> One
paragraph of it will sound familiar and has already been responded to.
The rest will be new. Sorry to confuse everyone, including myself!

Carol earlier:
> I don't entirely agree. I don't think that Snape intended to kill
Dumbledore (much less wanted to do so, though I know that's not what
you're implying). I think he had no choice, or rather, had only
Hobson's choice (he had to kill DD himself because not to do so would
have even more devastating consequences), and he chose the only spell
that would serve that terrible necessity without additional pain and
degradation for Dumbledore.
>
Magpie responded:
> So what is the difference you're seeing, exactly? Because I do agree
with your description of what's terrible for Snape, and that (imo) he
didn't want to kill Dumbledore at all. I think he had the intention in
the most basic sense because he had to do it--much as Harry didn't
want to feed Dumbledore the Potion, but did it on purpose.

Carol again:
I'm a bit confused myself, actually. But my objection to the word
"intent" (or "intend") is that (to me) it implies premeditated murder.
It suggests that Snape wanted to kill DD and that he was planning to
do it. IOW, "intend," to me, suggests an attitude toward a
future action. Draco *intended* to kill Dumbledore (until he was
confronted with the prospect of actually doing it) just as I *intend*
to do my income tax. (Not a good example, but I don't have any bad
intentions at the moment to use for comparison, ;-) ) Snape, AFAIK,
had no intention of killing DD. He and DD together seem to have been
trying to prevent a confrontation between Draco and DD from occurring
(and triggering the vow). There's no evidence of premeditation that I
can see. It looks to me as if both he and DD are doing everything
possible to avoid triggering the vow.

If you're using "intent" in the sense of "meaning to do something" as
in "an intentional action," not an accident, then I agree with you
(though I still don't like the word "intent" here because of the
suggestion of premeditation). Obviously, Snape meant the words he was
speaking, despite not wanting to say them, or DD wouldn't have died.
He was doing what he had to do (like a soldier pulling a trigger and
killing an enemy when he'd rather be anywhere else). But that's not
what *I* mean when I say that I intend to do something. I mean that
I'm planning to do it and have every intention of doing it, but I
can't do it right now.

In case anyone thinks I'm just mixing up "intent" and "intention,"
here's the Merriam-Webster online definition of "intent":

Main Entry: 1in·tent
Pronunciation: in-'tent
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English entente, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin
intentus, from Latin, act of stretching out, from intendere

1 a : the act or fact of intending : PURPOSE; especially : the design
or purpose to commit a wrongful or criminal act <admitted wounding him
with intent> b : the state of mind with which an act is done : VOLITION
2 : a usually clearly formulated or planned intention

So I guess I'm using definition 1a or 2a and the rest of you are using
1b. At least this should make clear why the use of the word "intent"
bothers me; it's too ambiguous. 1b is too easily read as 1a. I don't
think that Snape had any criminal intent or even a "clearly formulated
or planned intention." It's even a stretch, IMO, to say that he had
the "volition" since I think he was acting against his own will.

As for what's required to actually someone kill with an AK, besides a
wand, the incantation, and the power or ability, I suppose that you
have to summon the will to do it (whatever Snape means by "nerve"),
the "volition," which I suppose is what the rest of you mean by
"intention," But to *wish* Dumbledore dead? ("But it's dramatic
because what AK is is just the wish for someone else to be dead spoken
aloud.") I don't agree with that at all. DDM!Snape doesn't wish DD to
be dead. He would much rather, I think, have died himself, but his
wishes have no effect on the spell. (Note to Magpie: I know that
you've already responded to this part, but I still don't agree.
So-called "magical thinking," for example, the wish that someone was
dead, actually requires a desire for the person to die. A voodoo doll
is a good example. *There's* Dark magic for you.)

Magpie:
> So what is different in his using the AK here in your view? Are you
saying that it's different because of the positive aspects of it, like
that in that situation the way Snape chose to kill Dumbledore was the
best way because it was quick and got him away from Fenrir etc.?

Carol:
Yes. I'm certain that no one except Snape would have performed the AK
in just that way, sending DD over the wall. That action almost
certainly saved DD's body from being desecrated by Fenrir and allowed
Snape to get Draco and the DEs off the tower before Harry could rush
out after them. (Snape would have seen the second broom and deduced
that Harry was there in his Invisibility Cloak.)

But also, surely it's better for DD to die from an AK (quick,
painless, etc.) than from that horrible potion (and DD might prefer to
die from Snape's hand rather than Harry's, though I don't think that
was in his thoughts at all--only what would happen if Snape didn't go
through with "the deed" himself--consequences too terrible to
contemplate, IMO).

So, yes. Given the limited and terrible choices available to Snape, an
AK that somehow sent DD over the battlements was the best that I can
see. And if it split his soul, if it counts as "the supreme act of
evil" (and I'm not sure that it does), it would have done so if he had
chosen some other means of killing DD, just as poisoning Hepzibah
Smith worked just as well as an AK to split Voldemort's. (Harry's
soul, of course, would not be split if DD had died from the potion
because he wasn't *trying* to kill him, wasn't "intending" it in your
sense of the word. But I still don't like "intend" because of the
implication of premeditation and criminal intent.

Carol, apologizing for missending the post and hoping that it threads
correctly