I HAD A DREAM OR HOW I REALIZED THAT I MAY HAVE BEEN WRONG./ PART 2 sort of

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 167161

> 
> > Pippin:
> > 
> > Would normally like to? in this case? make do? 
> > 
> > What kind of drama is that? 
> > 
> 
> Neri:
> Er
 are you saying that the tower scene was *not* dramatic? Maybe our
> differences regarding the definition of Bang are bigger than I thought.
> 
> I doubt the tower scene could have been made more dramatic than it is
> with a lengthy taunt from Snape. More likely it would have made it
> less dramatic. Yes, Snape's character perhaps had to make do with less
> in this case, so that we readers could get *more* Bang.
> 

Pippin:
The tower is plenty dramatic as it is. But if JKR is true to form,  it should 
become even *more* bangy when we know what really happened,

However, if  the situation resolves as you predict, then the impact of 
the scene will be less on re-reading. We'll know that this was Snape's
big moment of triumph over Dumbledore, and we'll feel cheated that
he didn't get a chance to sneer. When he does sneer later on, it's
over Harry, not DD.

 But  if the situation resolves as I  predict, it will be *more* bangy.
There will be lots of lines that take on a different context, and
whose emotional impact will be deepened. 

That won't need to be explained  any more than we need 
it explained to us that when Sirius said, "He's at Hogwarts!" he meant 
Peter not Harry. Here are some examples, starting in the cave, of
lines that will change if we re-read knowing that the poison
will kill Dumbledore and that Snape's AK is fake.

---
"Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing" [As has been
noted, this echoes Snape's expression on the Tower]
---
Dumbledore drank, and no sooner had he finished than he yelled,
"KILL ME!"
"This--this one will!" gasped Harry. "Just drink this...It'll all be
over...all over!"
----
"you said it wasn't poison"  [poison: a substance that  causes injury, 
illness or death. In fact Dumbledore said the opposite, that it would
incapacitate him in some way and that he was only ruling out that it
would kill him immediately]
----
"That potion...was no health drink...." . The American Heritage Dictionary
notes that "poison potion" is a doublet, two words that go back
ultimately to the same source in another language. The source
of both is the Latin potio, which means "the act of drinking, a drink."]
----
"Old age, in short...One day, perhaps, it will happen to you...if you
are lucky...." 
----
"I don't even know why the Dark Lord's bothering to kill yer!"
----
*it had not happened...It could not have happened*...
----
He had to get to Dumbledore and he had to catch Snape...Somehow
the two things were linked....He could reverse what had happened if
he had them both together....Dumbledore could not have died.
----
Snape closed in and looked down on him where he lay, wandless
and defenseless as Dumbledore had been. Snape's pale face, 
illuminated by the flaming cabin, was suffused with hatred, just
as it had been before he had cursed Dumbledore.

[ JKR cheats the description of Snape's hatred both here
and on the tower, and does not show us, for example,  curled lip, 
glittering eyes or bared teeth. That's weak writing if Snape's
hatred is genuine, but clever misdirection if it isn't. ]
---
"He's dead. Snape killed him...."
"Don' say that" said Hagrid roughly. "Snape kill Dumbledore --
don' be stupid, Harry. Wha's made ye say tha'?"
"I saw it happen"
"Yeh couldn't have."
"I saw it, Hagrid."
"What must happened was, Dumbledore musta told Snape ter
go with them Death Eaters,"Hagrid said confidently. "I suppose
he's gotta keep his cover."

-----
He had known that there was no hope from the moment
that the full Body-Bind Curse Dumbledore had placed on
him lifted, known that it could have happened only because
the caster was dead 

[Of course  Harry knows nothing of the sort. Neville is not still 
under the full Body-Bind Curse, for example, yet Hermione is very 
much alive.]
--
C'mere, Harry..."
"No."
"Yeh can' stay here, Harry...Come on, now..." [...] Hagrid's hand on
his shoulder was trembling.

[This scene   grows stronger  if  it turns out that JKR is not
cheating us of seeing Hagrid's realization to  Snape's betrayal ]
--
"Harry, what happened? According to Hagrid you were with Professor
Dumbledore when he--when it happened. He says Professor Snape
was involved in some--" 

["way" would be the obvious missing word. It seems from this and
McGonagall's tremendous shock that Hagrid was  
unwilling to repeat Harry's accusation. Yet if he actually thought 
Snape had murdered Dumbledore, he should be on fire with outrage,
unable to contain his anger against Snape.  Remember "Never insult 
Albus Dumbledore in front of me!" and  how he was ready to strangle 
Karkaroff for merely spitting at DD's feet? Now Dumbledore's been 
murdered and Hagrid hasn't got  a word to say against his killer? 
Not likely!]

"I know," said Harry, and they all turned to look at him. "Snape
passed Voldemort the information that made Voldemort hunt down
my mum and dad. Then Snape told Dumbledore he hadn't realized
what he was doing, he was really sorry he'd done it, sorry that they
were dead."
[...]
All of them seemed to be lost in horrified shock, trying to digest
the monstrous truth of what had happened.

[monstrous:  shockingly hideous or frightful, but also :deviating 
greatly from the norm in appearance or structure, abnormal. As 
Dumbledore is indeed dead but we know part of Harry's 
explanation must be untrue, both meanings apply. A 'monstrous 
truth' indeed]
 ---

I'm sure there's more, but you get the idea. The death of Dumbledore
is not going to lose its Bang. If you admit ESE!Lupin, it won't lose
its good guy turned bad-ness either. Lupin doesn't have to have
killed Dumbledore with his own hands to be responsible, anymore
than Peter had to personally kill the Potters. We get Lupin's reaction
when he realizes ...

"No!" Lupin looked wildly from Ginny to Harry, as though hoping the
latter might contradict her, but when Harry did not, Lupin collapsed 
into a chair beside Bill's bed, his hands over his face. Harry had never 
seen Lupin lose control before; he felt as though he was intruding 
upon something private, indecent.


> Neri:
> DDM!Snape is nice Bang if you can get it, although IMO not quite
> enough for the price you offer. TooCleverByHalf!DD is a horrible,
> horrible Dud.
> 

Pippin:
Too bad, because he's canon. Dumbledore trusted recklessly, according
to JKR. One thing he has trusted recklessly time and again is his own 
cleverness.

He didn't think DE's could get into the castle, he thought his precautions
would keep his werewolf student safe from harm to himself and others, 
he thought he could keep Harry out of the TWT, etc, etc and so forth.
His mistakes, as he says, are correspondingly huger, and he can be as
woefully wrong as that fellow with the cheese cauldron. 

The other thing he has trusted recklessly is Lupin's sense of honor. He
supposed Lupin would respect the agreements that permitted him to 
attend Hogwarts. Dumbledore didn't think anyone in the castle would 
help Sirius, and if Lupin didn't actively help Sirius enter he 
certainly didn't do all in his power to keep him out. And if that
was because Sirius was his friend, then Lupin is a liar "I haven't been
Sirius's friend, but I am now." 

Dumbledore knew that Lupin was weak. By Dumbledore's own standards
it was reckless to bring him into the Order, trusting him for a third time. 
And this is all confirmed canon, without any ESE speculations at all. 

Pippin