The Prank in DH (was Re: Predictions for the End (what I think, hope and know)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 167294

> > > > Alla:
> > <SNIP>
> ? To me more means discovering something that we may 
> > not  yet know.
> 
> Pippin:
> It could be that Lupin was actively involved , or that Snape 
> was forced to enter the willow. Either or both of those would make
> Snape more of a victim than he is now. Snape speaks  as if
> he was expected to treat it as a joke gone wrong, not a serious
> attempt to kill him. 


Alla:

Actually, do not see it as I am, I agree that it will answer my 
questions. Most definitely, Snape being **coerced** entering the 
Willow will make him look more a victim than he looks now. 



> Pippin:
> Oh my, no. Lupin said, "Of course Snape tried it." The implication
> was that Snape was spying on the Marauders, just looking for 
trouble.
> 
>  If we learn that Snape  *was* forced in and it was a premeditated
> attempt to kill him, IMO that will be a big surprise for Harry, 
whose
> take on it is "Just because they made a fool of you at school."

Alla:

Would it be a big surprise for the reader though? I mean, Snape is 
pretty sure that they tried to kill him, is he not?

I mean, the possibility is firmly in reader's mind already IMO. So 
far it looks like one of the two things to me - either a reckless 
prank or premeditated murder and both possibilities are hinted in the 
text, no?

I will think that the only possibility **not** hinted at the text yet 
is the third one IMO, that Snape was somehow involved in that too. I 
hope I do not have to say that to you that I honestly think that 
dramatically this one will be a bigger surprise since it is not 
expected IMO. That is I guess to anticipate the usual argument I get 
when I argue this - not from you, Pippin. Oh, you just do not like 
Snape. :) Yeah, hate him with passion. Would love nothing more than 
to see him humiliated and or/dead at the end of book 7, that does not 
preclude me from thinking that surprise revelation of that night 
would be a surprise, if we discover that Snape was not only a victim, 
since he IMO already set up like one.


Pippin: 
> Personally, I think that Sirius did only mean it as a nasty joke --
> it was Lupin who attempted murder by placing Snape under Imperius
> or otherwise coercing him.

Alla:

Okay :)



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wynnleaf" <fairwynn at ...> wrote:
<SNIP>
> I agree that Sirius probably didn't intend Snape to die.  But if 
not 
> die, what *did* he intend?  There's no way Snape would only get a 
> good scare if he actually ran upon the werewolf.  
<SNIP>

Alla:

Sirius run with werewolf every month. I think it is entirely possible 
that he would not think much that it would be unsafe for somebody 
else, if it was safe for them.

Sort of forgetting about safety? I think it was Eric Oppen who wrote 
a post about that. Like if somebody deals with something dangerous 
all the time and that somebody learned to do something to make sure 
he is safe ( being Animagus), it is sort of possible to forget that 
for anybody else it would not be safe IMO.

Wynnleaf: 
> As regards why Snape went to the Willow, this is interesting.  
Snape 
> had actually seen Lupin going *with* Pomfrey.  So he knew that 
> Lupin's monthly absences were school sanctioned.  If he knew they 
> were school sanctioned, why would he expect that following Lupin 
> would lead to the Marauders getting expelled?
> 
> I have wondered if in fact Snape did overhear the Marauders who, 
> during the pensieve scene of Snapes Worst Memory, were not 
> particularly circumspect in discussing their monthly forays.  
> Perhaps Snape guessed that there was more going on than just 
> whatever school-sanctioned activity was happened when Pomfrey took 
> Lupin away.  Perhaps he guessed that somehow, the Marauders got up 
> to something with Lupin later?  If that was the case, he would have 
> been entirely correct and also correct that their activities 
> deserved expulsion.
><SNIP>

Alla:

Yeah, exactly. Lupin's absences were school sanctioned, so what 
business that was of Snape's?

Wynnleaf: 
> The way the Prank incident is related by Lupin, it always sounds 
> like Snape half-deserved it because he was following them around 
> looking for a way to get them expelled.  That makes Snape look 
bad.  
> Bad Snape, trying to get those nice Marauder fellows, who were 
> really sweet boys, expelled.  But in fact, the Marauders were 
> engaged in a monthly activity that put the whole countryside in 
> peril -- for which, yes, they probably *did* deserve expulsion.
> <SNIP>

Alla:

Erm, I completely disagree. The way Lupin tells the story right now, 
that makes Marauders look very bad. I mean, any walking around trying 
to get them expelled , really how can it be comparable with trying to 
**kill** somebody?

Now, if we learn that were was something else there, the specific 
reason why Snape was following them, sure that can make him look bad 
IMO.


Wynnleaf:
> We can speculate a lot about whatever supposedly bad things Snape 
> was up to during school.  But canon doesn't actually tell us about 
> *any* of them, with the exception of what we choose to believe out 
> of the extremely biased views of Sirius (who *always* speaks of 
> Snape in biased terms -- complete with some sort of name calling), 
> or Lupin whose deceptive tendencies (for good and ill) are canon.

Alla:

It does tell me more and more bad things of what Snape did with every 
book actually. 

Wynnleaf:
<SNIP>
> So was the prank the reason Snape turned to Voldemort?  Of course 
it 
> wasn't the only reason.  But could it have been the "straw that 
> broke the camel's back?"  Perhaps.  It appears so far in canon that 
> the Marauders bullied Snape for years.  If that's the case, and no 
> teachers stepped in to stop it, and then the Prank occurred and if 
> James *was* involved, yet was still made Head Boy later, I could 
see 
> how such events could drive a person to completely despise the 
> established Wizarding World system that would appear (to an 
> adolescent perhaps) to reward a bully and excuse a would-be 
murderer 
> simply because they were popular and part of the supposedly "good 
> guys" in Gryffindor.
> 
<SNIP>


Alla:

Sure, I can buy that. As one of the reasons that drove Snape to 
Voldemort, not the only reason and I am going to go out on the limb 
and say that it is not even going to be the main reason, even if 
Snape's desire to execute revenge played some part. 
The only thing is - we do not know that yet. We do not know that 
Marauders bullied Snape for years, we do not know that teachers did 
nothing to stop it - in fact record of detentions to me speaks to the 
contrary, that teachers stepped in when needed.

We do not know that Dumbledore took Marauders side in the Prank. 
There is nothing to even suggest that Sirius was not punished for 
that, we **only** know that he was not expelled.

So, if all of that happened as you predict - sure, I will be the 
first one to say - Marauders played a big part in driving that Snape 
to Voldemort.

JMO,

Alla