The Prank in DH (was Re: Predictions for the End (what I think, hope and know)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 167324



Alla wrote:
> <snip> we have SO many questions about that night and almost no
answers that any conclusive judgment is premature. Dumbledore's
supposed taking Marauders side in prank is the one I find especially
amusing. I mean, really, where in canon it says so? The fact that
Dumbledore did not expel Sirius? 
> 
wynnleaf responded:
> Here I agree.  Many pro-Snape fans (especially over in the fan fic 
world), seem to assume that the Marauders got off almost without 
punishment.  The only thing we really know is that they didn't get 
expelled.  Harry, when using Sectumsempra on Draco, didn't get 
expelled either, even though McGonagall did say he could have 
deserved it.  So it's not that surprising that Sirius didn't get 
expelled.  For all we know, he was in detention for the rest of the  year.
> 
Carol chimes in:
We also know that James was later made Head Boy, a decision in which
Dumbledore must have had some say, and it could not have made Severus
happy. We also know that Severus remained silent regarding Remus
Lupin's being a werewolf for about twenty years after the so-called
Prank? Why? Was his ability to keep that secret one of the reasons why
DD trusted him? (I can understand his not wanting it to be generally
known that his worst enemy had saved his life and that he would regard
that debt, "life debt" or not, as humiliating and want to repay it.
And that nagging sense of obligation to someone he hated probably
played a role in his later trying to protect the Potters.) 

But it does seem as if the Marauders, or at least Sirius, the only one
we know for sure to have planned the so-called Prank, got off lightly,
especially in the view of Severus Snape, who thinks him capable of
murder at sixteen and continues to hold that view (with seemingly
strong supporting evidence) through the end of PoA and possibly
beyond. Someone mentioned that Dumbledore is giving Sirius a second
chance by not expelling him. I think that's the case, and the adult
Snape, even though he, too, has been given a second chance, either
fails to see the same principle being applied or views it (ironically)
as mistaken leniency on Dumbledore's part.

In any case, we need to know how much James knew, what exactly he did
to save Severus's life, what punishment(s) he and the others received,
why Severus kept quiet all those years. I suppose we also need to know
what motivated Sirius to trick Severus (though I don't think any
motive excuses such reckless endangerment to a fellow student, not to
mention the consequences to himself and his friend Remus if Severus
had been killed or bitten). We need to know to what extent, if any,
Remus and Peter were involved. We need to know why Severus fell for
the trick after recently having been tested on werewolves, though to
be fair, listing five traits that distinguish a werewolf from a true
wolf is hardly comparable to the essay that Snape later assigned to
Lupin's DADA students. We need to know to what extent the Prank pushed
Severus in the direction of the Death Eaters. (Did it prompt him, for
example, to adapt a simple cutting or slashing spell into the much
Darker Sectumsempra?) 

I doubt that JKR will give us all the answers we're looking for, and I
doubt that they'll have much effect on the way we as readers feel
about MWPPS. But if we're really going to understand Snape (and, IMO,
it's Snape who matters now), we need as many answers as JKR is willing
to give. (I could use an explanation of those memories from Harry's
Protego while we're at it.)

Alla:
> > 
> > Quite unreasonably? I guess we have to agree to disagree right 
away if we are going into Marauders are liars argument. 
> 
wynnleaf:
> I suppose it depends on whether you consider anyone giving biased 
info a "liar."  Sirius *always* speaks of Snape with insults, name 
calling, etc. even in the GOF scene where he gives some info about
Snape to the Trio.  In my opinion, when the speaker is including 
name-calling in with their comments, you have to assume what they say
is at least partially biased.  Not necessarily a lie, unless the
intent is to mislead.

Carol:
I agree with wynnleaf that we can't exactly trust Sirius Black's
information on Snape, not only because of the mutual hostility but
because he believes as of OoP that Snape's loyalties have not changed.
His learning that Snape was once a DE is like Snape's learning after
GH that Black had (supposedly) betrayed the Potters and killed twelve
Muggles plus poor little Peter Pettigrew. Each willingly and eagerly
believes the worst of the other. As JKR says of Black:

"Sirius is very good at spouting bits of excellent personal
philosophy, but he does not always live up to them. For instance, he
says in "Goblet of Fire" that if you want to know what a man is really
like, 'look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.' But
Sirius loathes Kreacher, the house-elf he has inherited, and treats
him with nothing but contempt. Similarly, Sirius claims that nobody is
wholly good or wholly evil, and yet the way he acts towards Snape
suggests that he cannot conceive of any latent good qualities there.
Of course, these double standards exist in most of us; we might know
how we ought to behave, but actually doing it is a different matter!"

http://www.half-bloodprince.org/snape_jkr.php

By the same token, finding out that Black didn't betray the Potters or
kill all those Muggles may well have been one of the greatest
disappointments of Snape's life. (How disappointing for the traitor to
be the paltry Pettigrew!)

At any rate, SB is not a reliable witness when he's talking about
Snape any more than when he's talking about his "idiot brother." What
does he mean when he says that the eleven-year-old Severus came to
school knowing more curses than most seventh-years? Surely, he's using
"curses" loosely to mean "hexes" and "jinxes." Note that JKR uses the
terms almost interchangeably and spells identified in canon as curses
include Impedimenta (Impediment Curse), Reducto (Reductor Curse), and
Petrificus Totalus (Body-Bind Curse). There's also the Leg-locker
Curse and the Babbling Curse.) 

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/magic/spells/spells_c.html

Nor is there any canon evidence to support Black's assertion that the
young Snape was "up to his eyeballs in the Dark Arts." The HBP's
Potions hints are brilliant and useful; his spells are either useful
charms like Muffliato or "imaginative little jinxes and hexes" like
Lang-Lock, the toenail hex, or Levicorpus, the last of which comes
complete with its own countercurse. Sectumsempra is the sole example
of Dark magic, and I very much doubt that Teen!Severus used it or he
would have been expelled. (the little cut that he gave James appears
to be something entirely different. James isn't bleeding to death, nor
did he apparently require a complex countercurse to be healed or
dittany to prevent scarring.) Based on the HBP's notes and that
detailed DADA exam, what young Severus was "up to his eyeballs in" was
DADA and Potions.

So not lies, exactly, on Black's part, but possiblly serious
misinterpretation of a skinny, nerdy, greasy-haired little oddball
whose fellow Slytherins became Death Eaters in fairly large numbers.
And finding out at the end of GoF that Snape had himself been a DE
would have confirmed Black's worst suspicions and further colored his
interpretation of his own actions and Severus's when they were
teenagers, just as his fondness for James and James's heroic death
colors his interpretation of James in the opposite direction.
> 
wynnleaf:
> As regards Lupin, for good or bad, he has quite a history of lying.
And practically all of his lies are to prevent people from thinking
ill of him.  Some readers assume that in spite of 9 months of lying 
and lying and lying simply to keep the good will of others, we should
assume that Lupin saying he's oh, so sorry is supposed to mean he'll
never lie again and therefore everything else he says in canon must be
true.  While Lupin may *certainly* be sorry about his previous lies,
he has shown himself far too willing to lie to keep the goodwill of
others in order to believe everything he says to Harry about Snape.

> <snip> Just remember, at the end of POA, it was not Lupin who
confessed *anything* to Dumbledore.  Sirius told Dumbledore about
being animagi, and Lupin did *not* tell Dumbledore about the Marauders
Map (Dumbledore first learns of it in GOF).  Lupin did not appear to 
volunteer to Dumbledore any additional info other than what Sirius had
already told Dumbledore.


> Alla
> > Remus hides information, yes. But does he lie? <snip>

Carol:
We can believe at least two things that Lupin says of Snape. One is
that he's "a superb Occlumens"; the other is that he made the
Wolfsbane Potion "and made it perfectly." Those statements relate to
Snape's abilities and are confirmed by canon evidence. But when Lupin
starts talking about Snape's motives or aspirations, I think we should
take him with a grain of salt. He may or may not be a Legilimens Snape
is both a Legilimens and an Occlumens and he would be on his guard
against Lupin. And the mind is not a book; not even a better
Legilimens than Lupin could be privy to Snape's inmost thoughts, and
Lupin is certainly not his confidante.

I am quite frankly not sure what to make of Lupin, who does more than
lie by omission throughout PoA. He lies by commission to Snape in
front of Harry about the Marauder's Map he helped to create:

"Full of Dark magic? Do you really think so, Severus? it looks to me
as though it is merely a piece of parchment that insults anyone who
reads it. Childish, but surely not dangerous? I imagine Harry got it
from a joke shop--" (PoA Am. ed. 288). Later, he repeats that Harry
must have gotten it from Zonko's (288).

Now, granted, the map is probably not "full of Dark magic," but Lupin
knows full well that it isn't just a piece of parchment that insults
the reader and he knows equally well that Harry could not have bought
it at Zonko's since it was confiscated by Filch. I doubt that Lupin
expects Snape to believe him (and it's interesting that when he says,
"I'll take this *back*, shall I?" (289) that Snape doesn't protest).
Lupin almost immediately reveals to Harry and Ron that he knows it's a
map, knows how to work it, and knows the manufacturers (he doesn't, of
course, reveal who the manufacturers are), and Harry, relieved not to
be in trouble for sneaking out to Hogsmeade, doesn't even question the
fact that Lupin has lied to Snape right in front of him--just as he
later doesn't question Fake!Moody when he wants to borrow the
Marauder's Map. They've both saved him from detentions with Snape.
They must both be good guys.

Lupin not only conceals information, he actually lies when his own
past indiscretions are likely to be revealed. He makes assumptions
about Snape (for example, his wanting the DADA position) that may or
may not be valid. And he makes excuses for James ("he was only
fifteen"). I want to like and trust Lupin, but I can't. He still acts,
as he did in PoA, as if he's hiding something. And his statements
regarding Snape seem off, somehow, but I can't tell whether he's
misleading Harry or merely mistaken.

Carol, wondering tangentially whether Black's reference to the
Prophecy orb as a "weapon" should count as lying to Harry (though not
about Snape)