The Prank in DH (LONG )

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 167328

> Magpie:
> I don't think Zara's talking about lying here. JKR seems 
fascinated 
> with people being honest about a situation but *still* not being a 
> reliable source of their own activities. <SNIP> That's why, imo, 
it's good to not consider the Marauders reliable 
> sources on their own activities. Not because they lie--they don't, 
and 
> we'd be foolish to think that they are. You should consider them 
> reliable in terms of the basic actions that happened (including 
stuff 
> like Snape being Lucius lapdog and being part of a gang of 
> Slytherins), you just can't assume they're interpreting them 
correctly 
> for you (Snape's relationship with Lucius and the gang may not be 
any 
> like what one would imagine from what Sirius said). They're not 
> necessarily giving you the whole story as you yourself would see 
it, 
> because they're giving their side to it.
<SNIP>


Alla:

Oh, well in that sense I agree, sort of, maybe. And this is also a 
reply to Zara and Ceridwen, I think, since they brought similar 
points. What threw me off though in Zara's statement was the "of 
their own activities". I  thought she was talking about factual 
information, sorry Zara. If we are talking about emotional coloring 
of that information, then sure I will take Sirius statements about 
Snape with the grain of salt. Like - Malfoy lapdog, for example. I 
will definitely say that it hints to me of the very close 
relationship between them. But still, aren't all statements of 
Sirius about Snape factually looking more and more correct? Dark 
Arts, etc.

So, I will take into consideration them being enemies, but still 
take statements Sirius makes as factual truth.

So, what Zara said is  probably true – Sirius probably does not know 
whether Snape loved DA, but I certainly take it as truth that he was 
up to his ears in DA. Although who knows maybe he heard him 
confessing that he indeed loves those.

But when Sirius says that James hated DA, I definitely believe him, 
period. I think Sirius is in a very good position to know the 
mindset of the man with whom he was as close as brother.

Magpie:
 > When it comes to the Prank...I'm trying to think of what I think 
about 
> it. I don't think it was murder. I don't think Sirius is lying 
about 
> it. He's too angrily dismissive, and Lupin is too wearily 
dismissive--
> of the whole thing for me to believe there was really some evil 
plot. 
<SNIP>

Alla:

Good :)

Magpie:
> To me Snape reads more as someone whose story is known (as 
Dumbledore 
> reminds him it is) and it just isn't seen the way he sees it. JKR 
> seems to know how angry that can make people--perhaps even angrier 
> than if the real story just isn't known.

Alla:

See, I understand what you are saying, but I also believe that " my 
memory is as good as ever" can be read as Dumbledore stopping Snape 
in his track, meaning that Dumbledore has entirely different 
recollection of that, other than "Sirius Black tried to kill me".

Magpie: 
> I do think there could be very important information about the 
Prank 
> we don't know about, but my instinct doesn't lead me to think that 
> information is about making somebody any more or less guilty. I 
would 
> more guess the more information might be about why it makes Snape 
so 
> angry or why it's such a painful memory for him in general, which 
may 
> show the actions of a lot of people in a different light. 

Alla:

Oh man it is soooo hard to disagree with you Magpie :) But see here 
I do not know. I mean story wise to me Prank makes total sense as 
idiotic reckless event of fifteen year old, etc, no further 
information needed, yes, my instincts will probably tell me the same 
thing, except she said we learn more and that makes me to believe 
that it **may** make somebody look more or less guilty, because why 
would we need to learn just why it makes Snape so angry? I mean, he 
was sent to werewolf, was he not? ( Grrrrr, why did he listen? Why? 
Why?) It would make me angry enough, no additional info needed IMO.


Magpie:
I suspect 
> that's what makes the Prank so important and not whether or not it 
was 
> murder. To use something that's maybe not the best analogy, think 
of 
> Ron's anger at Harry in GoF. Saying that Ron was angry at Harry 
> because he thought he put his name in the Goblet doesn't really 
get to 
> the heart of *why* Ron was angry, what buttons that hit for Ron, 
why 
> it felt like a betrayal to him. 

Alla:

Well, but Ron's anger was not at something supposedly life 
threatening for him, no? I mean, isn't Snape anger as it stands 
right now sort of self explanatory?

I speculate that there was definitely something else, lol ( haha, 
Alla as great Trelawney) or somebody else involved. Boy do I need 
this book now :)


> Pippin:
> You won't be surprised if Remus turns out to have tried to murder
> Snape? You are expecting that to happen? Harry's favorite teacher
> and JKR's favorite adult character? 


Alla:

Oh, no, no Pippin. Sorry. I just dismissed that from my mind early 
enough when I wrote my previous post. You are right. If we learn 
that Lupin was the mastermind behind the Prank that would be 
surprising for sure. I do not buy it, but this will be enough drama 
for me.

Pippin:
> Or you don't think it will be shocking if Harry finds out his 
beloved
> godfather tried to commit murder as a teenager?

Alla:

I do not think this would be shocking for this reader, no. Or I 
should probably say that it would not be news for the reader, since 
the possibility of that is in the text

> wynnleaf
> I'm not sure what you mean.  What arguments could 
possibly "convict" 
> Sirius of murder?  Who exactly did he kill??  Do you mean 
attempted 
> murder?  Hm.  Well, Snape has no proof.  On the other hand, in the 
> Real World, a 16 year old setting up someone for a prank that 
anyone 
> should reasonably know is life threatening, would probably be 
> considered a murderer if the person actually died.  It may not be 
> premeditated, but it would still be considered murder.

Alla:

I am going to only address couple of your points, because most of it 
is just very different interpretation of the same canon.

Yes, when we have all the information about Sirius **setting Snape 
up**. That is my problem - that we do not know  how Sirius set him 
up and whether he set him up at all. Because yes, as I said if 
Sirius put Snape under Imperius and told him to go in the Shack, 
sure that can be considered attempted murder.

But if said sixteen year old had no idea, or I should say forgot 
that werewolves can be dangerous for those who are not Animagi, I 
think prosecution would have real trouble convicting.

I do not do criminal law though. Somebody brought a very good 
example some time ago - do you think Hagrid sending boys to follow 
the spiders was attempted murder as well?


>> 
> wynnleaf
> The reason I said Lupin's story makes it look like Snape sort of 
> deserved it, is because that's the way so many readers take it.  
> I've read numerous comments that Snape shouldn't have been 
following 
> the Marauders around to try and get them expelled and that if he 
> hadn't been doing that, it wouldn't have happened.  While 
> technically that's true, it seems to me to indicate that many 
> readers think Snape brought it on himself.  How dare he try to get 
> those nice Marauder boys expelled!  However, perhaps you don't 
feel 
> that way.  


Alla:

If there is nothing more besides that story, that Snape was only 
going around spying after Marauders, no desire to kill Remus, no 
specific desire to harm them with Dark Arts, no desire to harm Lily 
because she is a muggleborn or anything like that, then no I do not 
think he brought it upon himself, of course not.

But that is the thing - a great deal of story, including those 
eclipses after going around, trying to have us expelled, leads me to 
believe that there is more about the story and if Snape had any more 
sinister motives in mind, which will be revealed, then I will 
absolutely think that he did bring it upon himself.

I will especially think that he brought it upon himself, if he was 
indeed planning to kill "Dark creature" when he went to the Shack, 
but as it stands now, no I do not. I do not like him spying after 
Marauders one bit, but I do not think that justifies the Prank at 
all.


> wynnleaf
> What "more bad things" have we learned about what Snape did in 
> school?  Can't think of anything other than the mud blood comment 
and 
> inventing Sectumsempra which we don't know if he ever used.  So he 
> called someone a bad word in a stressful moment.  Not at all nice, 
> but it doesn't come close to collaborating all the stuff Lupin and 
> Sirius say.


Alla:

Oh well, here we are having difference of opinion. What to you is 
the bad word in the stressful moment, to me is the hint ( not 
necessarily evidence, but a hint) that Snape shared Voldemort's 
philosophy, full stop. Sectusemptra to me is the hint that Sirius 
words about Snape knowing dark curses, etc is perfectly true. I 
remember reading a lot of arguments that this just cannot be true, 
Snape knowing dark curses, etc, because it is Sirius talking. Well, 
I think that Sectusemptra can serve as a support for that.

What I am trying to say that of course these two things can be read 
in isolation or they could be hints at much broader badness of Snape 
while in school.

And of course it can also be hint for something even worse than 
that. If we learn that the reason why Snape was so into Dark Arts ( 
if he was) say because he took a Mark while in school.

I think the hint that Draco may have it can nicely foreshadow that 
Snape took it as well.

It does not mean that Marauders had to know that, but it certainly 
may mean that Snape did many other bad things while in school.

Speculating obviously.


Ceridwen:

<BIG SNIP>

> I think the only way we're going to get an objective reading of 
the 
> Prank is if we see it narrated objectively, in its own time, as if 
it 
> was real-time.  That's what I would really like to see in DH, if 
the 
> Prank is going to play more than a background role in the dynamics 
> between Snape and the Marauders.
> 
> All in my opinion, of course.


Alla:

Yes, dear. Me likes your opinions :) I am dying to see that night, 
dying. Please JKR, pretty please :)


JMO,

Alla