Sirius and jail

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 167377

Marion:
> So they meet, they sling hexes and curses at eachother, enough to 
> blow up the street and kill thirteen Muggles. Peter does his chop-
> the-finger disappearing act and when the smoke clears, the street 
> is littered with dead and dying Muggles and Peter's bloody robes 
> plus finger. And then the Aurors turn up.
> Of course Sirius didn't defend himself, Sirius thought he had 
> killed Peter and several Muggles. 

SSSusan:
Hmmmm.  We KNOW this?  Sirius thought *he* had killed the Muggles?


Marion:
>(and as for the explosions which killed thirteen Muggles, I don't 
> think Peter was solely responsible for that; they were clearly 
> fighting eachother which got innocent bystanders killed)

SSSusan:
I know that you said you *think* this, but I just don't see where we 
have canon for it.  Where do we get evidence that there were 
multiple explosions, that there were numerous spells/hexes/curses 
being cast?  How do we know that it wasn't one major nasty which 
blew up the street/Muggles?

Fudge says, "...and I was one of the first on the scene after Black 
murdered all those people.  ...A crater in the middle of the street, 
so deep it had cracked the sewere below.  Bodies everywhere.  
Muggles screaming." [PoA, US hardback, p. 208]

SSSusan again:
To me, reference to *a* crater (singular) certainly indicates one 
big, powerful spell.

Also, unless you feel that we cannot trust Sirius' account for some 
reason, we have his own words:

"When I cornered him, he yelled for the whole street to hear that 
I'd betrayed Lily and James.  Then, before I could curse him, he 
blew apart the street with the wand behind his back, killed everyone 
within twenty feet of himself -- and sped down into the sewer with 
the other rats...." [ibid, p. 363]

SSSusan again:
Here Sirius seems quite clearly to be saying that he did NOT believe 
he'd killed Pettigrew.  Rather, he realized that Pettigrew had set 
him up.


Marion:
> It was only when Fudge showed him the newspaper with the foto of 
> the Weasleys winning the lottery, with Ron holding Scabbers that 
> he realised that Peter had bamboozled him *again*.
> Which is why he escaped.
> Let me repeat that: he only escaped when he realised that he did 
> not murder Peter.
> He could have escaped in his animagus form any time he wanted to. 
> But he thought he was a murderer. He felt guilty for killing his 
> former friend, the traitor. When he realises he's been fooled 
> again, he stops his selfimposed incarceration and promptly escapes.

SSSusan:
I just don't see this.  Lupin asks Sirius not "How did you know 
Peter was alive?" but "How *did* you find out where he was?"  And 
Sirius shows Lupin the Daily Prophet and says, "When [Fudge] came to 
inspect Azkaban last year, he gave me his paper.  And there was 
Peter, on the front page...on this boy's shoulder.... I knew him at 
once...." [ibid, p. 363]

Why in the world would Sirius "know him at once" if he believed he 
was dead?  Why would he even look at a rat if he didn't expect Peter 
was alive somewhere?

BTW, Sirius went on in that speech to say, "And the caption said the 
boy would be going back to Hogwarts... to where Harry was...."  And 
later this:

"But then I saw Peter in that picture... I realized he was at 
Hogwarts with Harry... perfectly positioned to act, if one hint 
reached his ears that the Dark Side was gathering strength again.... 
So you see, I had to do something.  I was the only one who knew 
Peter was still alive...." [ibid, p. 371]

SSSusan again:
Yes, Sirius says he wants to commit the murder he'd been imprisoned 
for -- no doubt about that -- but are you saying THAT was the 
motivation for his escape, rather than a desire to protect Harry?  
If so, I don't see that.

>From these words of Sirius', one could easily say that Sirius only 
escaped when he realized that Peter was going to Hogwarts and that 
Harry was thus in immediate danger. It wasn't the realization that 
Peter was alive and he wanted to kill him so much as the recognition 
that Harry needed protection.  

Don't forget, also, how quickly Sirius backed off when Harry 
said, "No! You can't kill him!"  If Sirius was ALL about revenge and 
murderous desire, he wouldn't have respected Harry's opinion.  But 
at this point, once Pettigrew seems to be safely in their grasp and 
on his way to Azkaban, and Harry says "No!" Sirius *does* back off.

Siriusly Snapey Susan