Time-turning (Was: World Building And The Potterverse)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 167409

Magpie wrote:
<snip>
> In PoA it seems like the only difference is a different gimmick. JKR
chooses to show the version where Harry #1 sees Harry #2 come back in
time, only she hides it so he doesn't know that's what he's seeing. If
there was an alternate universe where Harry #2 didn't go back in time,
it's lost to Harry's experience. <snip>
> 
> I always think of that with PoA because so often I've heard it 
explained that the only reason Harry is able to go back in time is 
because he already did it, and that this somehow makes the time travel
in PoA more logical than in another story, and that I don't get.
<snip> Harry not seeing his future self would only mean that he didn't
go back in time, not that it would somehow now be illogical to do so
where it wasn't before, right? That, to me, is what creates a loop.
It's saying Harry can only choose to do something if he's received a
sign that he's already chosen to do it--so then where is the moment
where Harry makes his choice? It's seems like what it's really saying
is that we know Harry won't go back in time because according to JKR's
rules if she's going to show Time Travel we'll "see" it (even if we
don't realize it) before we know about it.
> 
> Since we experience time in a linear way, isn't there an unknown
pocket here? What happened in that pocket of time after Harry #1 met
the Dementors, but before Harry#1 became Harry #2 and saved himself? 
> We don't see that pocket of time in JKR's narrative stream, but 
> wouldn't it exist? (And why should the alternate versions of the 
> characters conveniently go away when they're finished?) How did 
> Harry #1 go on to become Harry #2 without the help of Harry #2 who 
> did not yet exist? 

Carol responds:
Harry and Hermione #1, who had already been saved by Harry #2 because
for this scene, time is circular and there is no alternate reality,
are taken to the hospital wing by Snape, for whom those three hours
only exist once. They are told by DD, who has somehow figured out what
happened, to use the Time-Turner to save "more than one innocent
life"--lives that have, in fact, already been saved because they have
*already* saved Buckbeak and been rescued by TT!Harry's Patronus or
Snape would have found only de-souled bodies to take to the hospital
wing. They go out, rescue Buckbeak, witness what they only heard an
misinterpreted the first time, Macnair furiously swinging his axe into
the fence and Hagrid crying out with joy, witness themselves, Lupin,
and Snape going into the Shrieking Shack, etc. Harry sees the
Dementors about to suck his and Sirius Black's souls, realizes that
the Patronus caster was himself and casts the Patronus that saves
them, he and Hermione rescue Black (who exists, like Snape and the
others, only in the linear time sequence) and return to the hospital
wing *just as HH#1 are becoming HH#2* (using the Time Turner to relive
those hours). At the same time, the returning Harry and Hermione #2
resume the normal time sequence and become, in effect, Harry and
Hermione #1. HH#2 have ceased to exist because the time during which
they were traveling back has ceased to exist. They have changed
nothing; they have only done what always happened. (But, of course, if
they *hadn't* traveled back, Buckbeak would be dead and Harry and
Sirius Black would be soulless bodies.) There is no gap ("unknown
pocket). Harry and Hermione were unconscious, remember, and Snape
carried them (and Ron and Black) back to the castle on stretchers that
he conjured. That's the only part we don't witness--except when HH#2
witness Snape conjuring the stretchers--because Harry, the pov
character, was out cold at the time. The next thing Harry #1 knows,
he's in the hospital wing with Ron and Hermione.

In short, HH#1 become HH#2, witness their earlier selves, who can't
see them, perform some actions that have already been performed from
the perspective of HH#1, and return to normal time, becoming, in
effect, HH#1 again because HH#2 no longer exist. 

If there were "an alternate universe where Harry #2 didn't go back in
time," Harry #1 would be soul-sucked and the WW doomed. There would be
no living, normal, but unconscious Harry for Snape to rescue and take
to the hospital wing. Harry #2 *has* to go back and always did go
back. That's the only reality in the books, the only possible outcome.

Does that make sense to you? I don't know; probably not. But it makes
sense to me. There's no gap; there's no change in what actually
happened. Only the perception of what happened has changed. And, for
me, that's what the HP books are about, in large measure, the
perception of reality as opposed to what really happened. look at
"Snape" plotting to steal the Sorceror's Stone. Look at Harry
"attacking" Justin with the snake. Look at Sirius Black "murdering"
Pettigrew and the Muggles and breaking into Hogwarts to murder
"Harry." Look at Macnair "executing" Buckbeak and "James" casting the
Patronus. Look at what happened on the tower. . . .

Carol, who is not arguing that time travel is in any way involved in
those other events, only that what the characters interpret as reality
is not necessarily reality within the books, regardless of whether
time travel is involved