Time-turning

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 167425

---  Bart Lidofsky <bartl at ...> wrote:
>
> From: sistermagpie <belviso at ...>
> >... Back to the Future, seems to me to be that in 
> > Back to the Future the writer has Marty McFly 
> > experience time in a linear way ..., and then go 
> > back and change it, and then return to the future 
> > with his same experiences ...

> Bart:
> 
> The basic unaswered question in open time loops is how
> they started in the first place. Now, for example, in 
> Back to the Future, Marty does not belong in his family 
> at first; it is only when he changes the past that his 
> family appears to be the kind of family he came from. 
> ...
> 
> Now, we can speculate in PoA how the time loop initiated.
> One way, for example, is for, in the pre-loop time, Harry
> somehow managed to create the Patronus on his own. Note
> that he DOES violate the rule of time travel by appearing
> to himself and visibly acting, albeit not clearly. 
> Therefore, that makes it the likely candidate for the 
> paradoxical moment. 
> 
> Bart
>

bboyminn:

You are talking about Time Loops when I think you should
be talking about Time Lines. Marty McFly and Back to the
Future is all about Time Lines. This is an extremely
problematic method of theoretical time travel. Marty
essentially keeps going back into the past and creating
a branch in the time continuum. When Marty makes 
a change in the Past, he destroys the current Time 
Line and replaces it with an alternate Time Line that
completely changes history from the point where Marty
made the change, proceeding from there onward into an
infinite future. 

When Marty returns to the present, if he doesn't like
what he sees, he goes make, makes another change, and
keeps doing this until he finally gets a future he
is satisfied with. 

The implications of this are astronomical. The 
complication, both to logic and to time, are equally 
of a mammoth magnitude. Yet, this is one very valid 
theory of how Time Travel potentially works.

Now back to our story, you keep talking about Time
Loops, but I don't think you have a Time Loop. What
you have is a logic loop. Once again, I point out 
that JKR left small details that were left as clues
to us, so we would understand that there was a certain
synchronicity to the events. These clues, after the
fact, should be our realization that events only 
happened once. Assumptions were made in the first
perspective that were proven wrong and explained in 
the second perspective. 

Now the fallible loop aspect seems to be the fact that
Harry could have chosen NOT to go back in time, thereby
creating an unresolvable time paradox. In theory, that
is true, but look at the circumstances. Even though
he doesn't immediately understand the details of the
plan, he does understand that it is his one and only 
chance to save Sirius. 

Lots of things can happen /in theory/, lots of very 
crazy and unlikely things. I could win the Lottery,
but the realistic odds are astronomically against it.
In reality, despite infinite theoretical possibilities,
we actually only have a limited set of choices. 

Given who Harry was and what Harry knew, he could 
logically and realistically have made only one possible
choice. So, the time paradox of Harry choosing to not 
go back in time, while having theoretical merit, has no
real world merit.

There are points where the first perspective and the
second perspective overlap or intersect. These 
intersections are the clues JKR left to lead us to 
the conclusion of one set of events, happening only
once in time, but seen from two different perspectives.

This is a linear sequence of time events. At 6:00pm a
second Harry and Hermione enter the one and only time
line, and they are there observing and interacting 
with the events as they unfold, leaving clues that
are seen but unrealized the the original Harry and
Hermione.

There is no paradox in Harry potentially choosing 
not to go back because that choice is unthinkable. 
Given an opportunity, he is going to do everything
and anything he possibly can to save Sirius. This is
not causality or predestiny, this Harry Potter being
true to himself, and making the only decision that
we could or would expect Harry Potter to make. The
greatest illogic, is to ponder Harry not making
the decision to save Sirius.

Far warning, I have participated in /many/ Time Travel
debates, I am here to say 'they will make you crazy'.
There is always going to be real and theoretical 
/illogic/ in any time travel by any author under any
circumstances. Time Travel can only exist if we
suspend our insistence on reality and logic. 

Marty McFly was playing in time in a way that could 
have had the most disastrous and irreversible 
consequences. If anything, it is the most dangerous and
illogical method of time travel, but it still made for a
great series of movies, /if/ you were willing to accept 
the basic premise and let the movie play out. 

I am willing to accept the basic premise that they have
an sufficient source of energy to have near-light-speed
travel in the Enderverse because that allows the story
to proceed.

I am willing to accept the logical analysis of JKR version
of Time Travel which is far less problematic, especially
the way it played out, than nearly any other version in
any other story. The potential for severe time paradoxical 
conflict in JKR version was certain there, but she 
controlled the story, and let it play out in a way that
avoided the catastrophic potential. 

Don't know if that helps, but there it is.

Steve/bboyminn - PS: discussing time travel is like
discussing religion or politics, it is impossible to
get people to agree.