Time-turning

[juli17 at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 167458

 


From: Zara <zgirnius at yahoo.com>
Here is the order of  events as I see it:
>
>5) Harry and Hermoine go back in time.  
>      This occurs at roughly the same time as H&H  leave the castle
>      for Hagrid's. We can deduce this  both because they almost
>      certainly hear themselves  in the hallway. Also because they
>      rescue Bucky  before the axe falls.
>6, 10) H&H save Buckbeak. (Why twice? We were  only shown it once.)
>1) Harry hears the axe fall.
>2) Shrieking  Shack incident.
>3) Harry and Sirius meet the Dementors.
>4)  (deleted nonexistent event - please cite canon this happened, if I 
>am  mistaken. You are *assuming* this, I believe. The assumption that   
>Harry was saved by himself is at least as correct as yours, we have  
>canon of Harry doing it.)
>11), 7) Harry saves himself. (This only  happens once, again).
>12, 8) H&H save Sirius. (Again, only happens  once).
>13) Time marches on (If you insist; it always does).


Bart:
Here is the flaw: According to canon, Harry goes back in time  AFTER he is 
saved from the Dementors. Except that it is an older Harry who saves  a younger 
Harry. But, if older Harry is not around, then, if you assume nothing  else, 
then younger Harry is pretty much dead, and there IS no older Harry to go  back 
in time. So, the story conflicts with itself. Or, there's another part that  
is not told; younger Harry surviving, then going back into time, and saving 
his  younger self, who, when he goes back in time, has slightly (but 
significantly)  different memories. Let me put it another way: we will measure time by 
letters.  The older Harry gets, the higher the letter in the alphabet attached 
to his name  becomes. 

1) Harry-a hears the axe fall (while Harry-f saves  Buckbeak)
2) Harry-b is in Shrieking Shack scene
3) Harry-c meets  Demontors.
4) Harry-d and Sirius are saved by Harry-g
5) Sirius and  Buckbeak escape with the help of Harry-h
6) Harry-e goes back in time. 
7)  Harry-i continues on. 

But let's look at it from Harry's point of  view:

a) Harry hears the axe fall.
b) Harry is in the shrieking shack  scene
c) Harry meets dementors.
d) Harry and Sirius are saved from the  dementors (Harry catches glimpse of 
his savior)
e) Harry goes back in  time
f) Harry saves Buckbeak
g) Harry saves Harry and Sirius from the  dementors. 
h) Harry helps Sirius and Buckbeak escape. 
i) Harry continues  on.

Note that in Harry's line, if Harry-d does not survive the dementors  without 
Harry-g's help, then Harry-e never goes back in time. 

Therefore,  either Harry is NOT saved, and the whole thing doesn't happen, 
OR, there is an  event that is wiped out in the process of making the loop that 
does not change  the fact that Harry-e goes back in time. Now, since Harry has 
a memory of seeing  SOMEONE saving him, that kind of narrows it down to two  
possibilities:

Either the dementors would not have endangered Harry and  Sirius if it 
weren't for Harry-g, or somehow they got saved by some other factor  the first time 
around. 


Julie now:
IMO the problem with your analysis is that you are looking at time  LINEARLY. 
Harry-d
must go through those three hours linearly to become Harry-g so  Harry-g can 
go "back"
and save Harry-d. But according to physics time is not linear. We only see  
it that way
from our flawed and subjective perspective. In the most esoteric sense,  
there is no 
"before" or "earlier" Harry (Harry-d) nor does Harry-g really come  "after" 
or "later" than
Harry-d. They are both present at this same "point" in time simultaneously. 
 
I know that is confusing, and the human brain isn't supposed to understand  
it, as
we can't experience time any way except linearly. And since I get most of  my 
physics
from books like Stephen Hawkings "A Brief History of Time" and Discover  
magazine,
I'm not really able to make it more comprehensible! One just has to accept  
that time
in fact isn't linear, that it can fold in on itself, and that  past, present 
and future are 
constructs of the human mind rather than an objective characterization  of 
Time.
 
As for whether time travel is possible, it certain isn't conceivable  to our 
human
minds right now. I can accept that it might be conceivable and  even doable to
human (or whatever comes beyond human) minds of the future. And if it  does
become in some way possible, I do think JKR's version--that time isn't  
linear,
but there is only one Time (past, present and future mixing in  whatever 
"order"
we still can't perceive--i.e. Time only happens once) makes more sense  than
multiple timelines branching off in a linear fashion (because Time ISN"T  
linear!),
creating new universes each time a "time traveler" changes something in  the
past. 

At any rate, time travel is so incomprehensible to our minds at this  point 
that
that it isn't really distinguishable from magic, so I can't say it really  
bothers me
at all to find it in novels that are specifically *about* magic!
 
Julie 





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