Time-turning

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 167467

---  "Ken Hutchinson" <klhutch at ...> wrote:
>
> ---  "Steve" <bboyminn@> wrote:
> 
> > Yes, technically there is a loop or loop-ish events
> > since the did go BACK in time. But in linear time,
> > they arrived at 6:00pm and they were always there. 
> > 
> > ...
> > 
> > As I said in a previous post, arguing time travel is
> > like arguing religion, there is simply no way to reach
> > a firm mutually agreeable conclusion. But it is still
> > a fun discussion.
> > 
> > Time Happened Once = Bliss
> > Time Happened Twice = Misery
> > 

> Ken:
> 
> ...
> 
> ... We are coming up to the point where Harry is about
> to get his first kiss .... Because time travel exists 
> in the Potterverse and conforms to the self-consistent
> ... model, a future Harry Potter either will come back
> and save the day or Harry's life will essentially be
> over, ... The decision has to be made right now, not 
> some time later by Dumbledore or Hermione in the 
> hospital wing. Who or what decides or even causes the
> decision to be made? I don't think there is an answer
> ....
> 

bboyminn:

To your last point, you are totally right, there is no
answer, at least not one that doesn't have some degree
of inconsistency in it because that is the nature of
ALL time travel, and here is why.

In forward-moving-ONLY time, we have a Cause and Effect
relationship. Something precipitates an event, then the
event occurs. Part of your problem, in the example you
give above, is that you are neither starting with the
Cause nor the Effect, you are starting in the middle,
and that is not the place to start.

Because some aspect of time, or people in time, has 
moved backwards, we have Effect followed by Cause, and 
that is the great paradox of time travel. The Effect is 
Harry and Hermione arriving in the time line at 6:00pm. 
The Cause is them initiating time travel at 9:00pm later
that evening. To the linear time line, the Cause is not
as important as the Effect of them arriving at 6:00pm. 
By arriving at 6:00pm, they are there to witness and 
take part in the events as a second set of themselves. 
Like I said, one set of time with TWO Harrys and TWO 
Hermiones in it. 

Now, if you are looking for a way for this to make
absolute sense, then I'm here to tell you it will never
happen. Time Travel, under any circumstances, by any 
author, in any framework, using any time-travel model,
doesn't make sense if you examine the logic outside the
confines and parameters set within the story. It makes 
for great fantasy if you suspend a degree of disbelief, 
but it will never ever hold up to detailed investigation;
never. 

Now perhaps I misspoke myself earlier when I equated
'Time Happens One' to 'Bliss'. It is not bliss to 
ponder this, it is a great big headache, so I now 
amend what I previously said -

Time Happens Once = a big headache.

Time Happens Twice = A headache so big no mortal can 
stand it. 

This is all quite understandable and consistent within
the story as told, if you simply start at the beginning
of time relative to this event. At 5:59pm the Trio rush
into the Hall and hide in a closet. At 6:00pm TT!Harry
and TT!Hermione arrive in the Hall and hide in another
closet. 

The /clue/ JKR left to tell us that all five of them 
were always there is that the Trio hear TT!Duo moving 
around the Hall and hiding. The TT!Duo then hear the Trio
leave to go down to Hagrid's hut. They heard each other,
only we don't know that is what they heard until we see 
the event the second time and put the pieces together.
There is no one for the Trio to hear if the TT!Duo are 
not there. Though I admit many fans never put those 
pieces together.

Start at the beginning of time with the Effect, and Harry
and Hermione will arrive at 6:00pm, follow the events 
through and at around 8:30, the second Harry saves the 
first Harry, then finally, the Cause, at about 9:00pm 
Harry and Hermione go back in time to take care of 
business. At about 9:01pm they return having taken care
of all necessary business; mission accomplished.

To view this any other way is to invite unnecessary and
unresolvable misery. To accept this view, is to still
be miserable, but at least resolvably miserable to the 
extent that any time travel story can be resolved.

So-

Time Happen Once = Misery, but resolvable misery.

Time Happen Twice = guaranteed absolute unresolvable
agonizing unrelenting misery. 

Once again, take your pick.

Steve/bboyminn - who both loves and hates discussing
time travel, which is itself a paradox.