Tobias & The Angel

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 167502

> >>Betsy Hp in:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/167433 
> > If Snape reported the prophecy to Voldemort on Dumbledore's 
> > orders it would mean that (a) Snape would have no reason to feel 
> > any remorse,

> >>Goddlefrood:
> Firstly let me emphasise, this is not the Snape I favour. On this
> point above I would simply enquire: "Do you honestly believe DD's
> story, as *inferred* by Harry, on his reason for trusting 
> Severus?"
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Yes.  Especially since Harry so badly misinterpreted it and mangled 
the time line. (That sort of mistake strikes me as a neon sign from 
JKR: "important information enclosed within".)  I think there's 
probably a bit *more* to the story, but I think it's correct in 
essentials.  Snape was working for Voldemort, overheard the prophecy, 
reported it to Voldemort, and was horrified with the result.  Works 
for me. <g>

> >>Goddlefrood:
> Severus does not come across as a man who feels remorse, it 
> seemed more like a cooked up story to me :)

Betsy Hp:
Hee!  And to me, Snape has been *aching* with remorse from the moment 
we first meet him.  His zealous protection of Harry, his constantly 
putting himself on the front line, his absolute rage at Sirius 
(someone who shared Snape's guilt) in PoA all speak to me of a 
character who is trying to gain forgiveness for the unforgivable.  

(I think Snape is harder on himself than he probably needs to be, but 
that goes with his character type.  They will gnash and wail and 
wander the wind swept moors.  Or, you know, go for a punishing cross 
country run with the Clash blaring on their ipod. <bg>)

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > (b) Harry will end the series hating Albus Dumbledore. 
> > <snip>

> >>Goddlefrood:
> He may end up this way, but has a forgiving nature, and would 
> find a way to forgive DD his transgression.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I... Wait -- what?  Harry has a forgiving nature?  I...  I'm going to 
need some canon, sorry.  This is a side of Harry I'm afraid I just 
haven't seen.

> >>zgirnius:
> <snip>
> On the other hand, if this theory is true, quite possibly all of
> the above is true of Dumbledore as well. His anguished words in
> the Cave could well express his feelings regarding the Potters,
> and his decision to die on the Tower could be his final act
> of atonement. If Harry can forgive Snape for these reasons, I
> don't see why he cannot forgive Dumbledore.

Betsy Hp:
Because Harry will forgive Snape *only* by seeing the amount of 
effort and pain Snape has put into trying to redeem himself.  And 
frankly, I think it'll be Snape's certainty that he *cannot* be 
redeemed that will win Harry over in the end.

Dumbledore has not gone through that sort of soul-searching pain.  A 
few moments babble under the influence of some potion won't do it for 
our young Harry.  Which is part of the reason I cannot see Snape 
suddenly *becoming* DDM in the very last book and Harry agreeing with 
it.  There needs to be a long trail of bloody footprints to wash away 
this particular sin.  Or at least, that's how I see it.  (And I think 
that's how both Snape and Harry would see it too.  Huh, I suspect 
Dumbledore would feel similarly, though I think he'd bicker about the 
actual *length* of trail needed.)

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > It would completely destroy any aspect of redemption within 
> > Snape's story. Snape would not need to be redemed because he did 
> > nothing wrong to begin with. 

> >>Goddlefrood:
> Yes, that interview statement is problematic, but its 
> interpretation, IMO, is that she complimented the interviewer on
> the question without actually agreeing with it.

Betsy Hp:
Oh, none of the above is at all based on any sort of interview 
question or answer.  I'm familiar with the one you're speaking of, 
but I agree that JKR hasn't answered (and shouldn't, IMO) any 
important character question.  No, I'm going by my sense of the story-
arch and character-arch.  It's all my opinion of course, but as 
stated in another post, this is one of which I'm smugly certain. <bg>

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > An emotional boy who wore his heart on his sleeve, and who       
> > therefore made a horrible mistake. A mistake he's spending the   
> > rest of his life trying to amend. *That's* a character and a     
> > story-line I can get behind. <g>

> >>zgirnius:
> No question about the aesthetic preference re. Snape, here, I
> agree. However, you get a story you have not been expecting
> about Dumbledore in exchange. The cold, calculating chessmaster
> of the good guys, forgetting for a moment what it is that makes
> his side good, then coming to love, and eventually die for, the
> boy he helped to orphan. (Though, like I suppose Snape did,
> DUmbledore also tried to protect the Potters. He offered to be their
> Secret Keeper, for example).

Betsy Hp:
IOWs, "Ender's Game" re-told? <eg>  Blech, I hope not.  For one, 
there's the frustration of Harry finding all of this out and not 
getting a chance to confront Dumbledore.  Plus, it means the entire 
Snape story was a red-herring.  All in all, I think it'd be a bit 
rude on JKR's part.  A bit too gimicky and gotcha-y.  Right up there 
with Hadrian Potsherd from Ravenclaw taking Voldemort down in the end 
(because it was a *twist*! Get it!!  Harry was a decoy all along!!).

There's been too much emotion put into Harry's relationship with 
Snape for it to all fizzle out in the end, I think.

> >>wynleaf in:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/167436
> > However, there is the question of why Snape went for many years
> > without revealing Lupin's secret. 

> >>Goddlefrood:
> <snip>
> IMO it is a strong ground for suspecting that Snape is far from
> being LV's man and lends support to him as either DDM or 
> SLANOBANTITS :)

Betsy Hp:
Well, as Pippin points out:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/167441
> >>Pippin:
> But it wasn't secret! He's been "shunned all my adult life, unable 
> to find paid work because of what I am." Lupin also says that the   
> staff know what he is, and we find out that he was hired with       
> Fudge's permission, which probably means that anyone with Ministry
> connections would know. So really, it was only the kids who
> were out of the loop. 
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
So if Lupin being a werewolf is not a secret kept by Snape all these 
years, then there's no reason to suspect that Snape would also know 
that Lupin was both in the Order and a spy (if Lupin even was at that 
time).  Not until Snape actually joined the Order himself (sometime 
after the first prophecy), though possibly not even then.

> >>Goddlefrood:
> <snip>
> For what it may be worth I accept the simple explanation as to 
> how Remus lost his job. Purely and simply it was due to concerns
> of parents, parents who had found out about his condition 
> through Severus's less than tight lips. With the proviso as above
> that it was spite against Sirius rather than Lupin that led Snape
> to let slip Remus's condition towards the end of PoA.

Betsy Hp:
I think Wynnleaf has the simplier answer, given all the players and 
their various actions throughout the series:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/167441
> >>wynnleaf:
> <snip of scene breakdown>
> Okay... my theory and analysis. Dumbledore was highly displeased    
> with Lupin, Lupin's year long deception, his higher regard for how 
> people would think of him than the safety of Hogwart's students,   
> and last, for forgetting his potion in a crisis. Lupin was asked to 
> resign. That's why Lupin *had* to leave. That's why Lupin was so
> uncomfortable around Dumbledore. That's why Dumbledore didn't seem 
> to have any regretful attitude toward Lupin's leaving. That's why
> Dumbledore didn't have anything to say to Harry about Lupin.

Betsy Hp:
It makes Lupin feel better to blame Snape, but it was his fault in 
the end.  

Betsy Hp