[HPforGrownups] Re: Time-turning

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 167529

 Carol:
> But why, in your view, doesn't Hermione just use the Time-Turner to
> make up the class that she slept through? Couldn't she just go back,
> say, four hours and attend Flitwick's class on Cheering Charms since
> she forgot to turn back and take it immediately before the class? You
> say she's already changing time by going back to take her classes, but
> if that's the case, why not change it a little bit more by going back
> four hours instead of one? Is something preventing her from turning
> back time once she's already missed the class? Surely, she already
> missed it in your "erased" alternate reality, but if that alternate
> reality consists of only one hour, it's okay to change it then and
> there, but not okay if she waits longer because it's *her*
> reality--sleeping through the class--that she'd be changing? Has
> McGonagall warned her that she can't go back more than the hour needed
> to take a second class (or third) because the unintended consequences
> of going back several hours later for a missed class would be too
> significant? Or is it because the Time-Turner doesn't go forward and
> she would have to relive those six hours, knowing that she was
> reliving them? (Notice that that's how she uses the TT all through the
> books--she goes forward in time by reliving the hour, or three hours,
> in the case of the Shrieking Shack sequence.)

Magpie:
I think she doesn't go back in time because now that several hours have 
passed she just doesn't think it's practical to live the whole day again. I 
don't think there's anything physically preventing her from turning the Time 
Turner to go back to the hour she missed at that moment (though she may have 
been told to only use it for an hour at a time) except that she's tired and 
it's the end of the day and doesn't seem worth it, so she just says, "Damn, 
forgot to go to X class." It's not important enough for the effort. Hermione 
is, after all, basically following a schedule for the day just like any 
other student. She goes to Arithmancy, then Divination, then lunch, then 
whatever, then whatever after that, then whatever after that. She missed her 
"schedule" when she didn't use the Time Turner at the same time she always 
does (like, use it at 11 am to go back to 10 am) so she's just letting it 
go.

Of course, if she *did* decide to use the Time Turner as soon as Ron 
reminded her about it, then she would go back six hours, take whatever class 
that was, then hang around for a few hours (I would nap!) and then Ron would 
wind up never reminding her of it because she wouldn't have missed the class 
to begin with! (Round and round we go again.)

Carol:
> Okay, now I'm a lot more confused than I was when I simply accepted
> what was on the page. But, IMO, we're overanalyzing here. The
> Time-turning in PoA is just a plot device (like a Pensieve or the
> Hogwarts Express or Apparation) that doesn't require a lot of in-depth
> analysis, not deliberate misdirection like, say, a conversation Harry
> is eavesdropping on and misinterprets. Harry's misperceptions about
> Buckbeak's "execution" and "James" saving his life have already been
> cleared away, and, IMO, there's nothing more for the reader to
> discover, nothing more for JKR to reveal about what "really" happened
> in those scenes.

Magpie:
I agree. Hermione's line sets up just how it's working in that scene where 
she misses class--she forgets to go to a class, just as she might have 
forgotten to go to one if she weren't using a Time Turner. Therefore she 
wasn't in it. She has to remember to take two classes during the same hour, 
and it confuses even her sometimes.


Carol:
I fear that
> the same thing will be true of Unbreakable Vows: we won't learn the
> mechanics of them; we'll just have to accept what's on the page,
> logical and consistent or otherwise. They, too, will be just a plot
> device.

Magpie:
Yes, I think that's the way much of her magic works. Same with when people 
try to read more into Pensieve scenes, taking into account things like 
subjectivity of memory or asking questions like "How far could Harry get 
away from the person having the memory, since he's already walking outside 
of things they consciously experienced?" It doesn't hold up to that kind of 
scrutiny, because it's more instinctual: this is what I remember, I'm 
showing it to you.

Heh--it reminds me of that thing I read once that was pointing out flaws in 
Tolkien. It first had this long paragraph about how when Frodo put on the 
ring and became invisible he would no longer be able to see because light 
could not reflect off the cones in his eyes etc. And then the next flaw was 
"Also, rings can't make you invisible."

Carol:
 (And, no, I
> don't accept Pippin's explanation that Ron's knowing about the Hand of
> Glory that Lucius Malfoy *did not* buy for Draco is anything more than
> a Flint.)

Magpie:
Just an aside on that question, but didn't JKR in an interview at some point 
even refer to the Hand as if it were something we knew Draco had? It made it 
seem like a Flint to me too, like she remembered to introduce the Hand, and 
then forgot that she introduced it in a scene where Draco didn't get it, 
which is not the same as explaining how Draco had a Hand of Glory. And I can 
also understand Betsy's question of how Ron knew about it.

That, I think, gets into the whole issue of Harry's relationship to the 
school. Sometimes she'll introduce things in such a way that we know that 
Harry's known about them for a while and we just hadn't heard about it--like 
when she introduces Blaise Zabini it's obviously as someone Harry knows 
about already. But other times we're told Harry really doesn't know about 
things and students in his class--or even his House. And with Draco we seem 
to know all the times when they've got anything to do with him because it's 
a plot point. But once in a while someone--usually Ron--will say something 
about Malfoy as if they spend a lot more time with him than they seem to do, 
and know stuff about him they don't seem to know because they sort of 
suggest conversations or scenes with Malfoy outside what they usually have.

Carol:
> Carol, who thanks Geoff for the links to previous posts on
> Time-Turning (all of which she's already read) but who is really more
> interested in the perception vs. reality angle, which is
> *thematically* important and not just a plot device that allows the
> events JKR wants to happen to happen

Magpie:
Yup, that's what seems to be the important part too. When you look at it 
that way, it's really the standard JKR device of having people see 
something, and misinterpret it because of lack of information or the wrong 
perspective. The main problem I think it adds to the universe is just, as I 
said, it's such a great power. As are actually a lot of things that she 
introduces for only limited purposes that would seem to make other plot 
points impossible or unnecessary.

-m