Who was responsible for Sirius' death? ...

[wynnleaf]

No: HPFGUIDX 167612

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dana" <ida3 at ...> wrote:
> I did look at the scene again and Hermione never tells Umbridge were 
> the weapon is hidden, Ron tells Harry he saw them enter the Forest 
> and they followed. So if we assume DD is correct that Snape waited 
> for Harry to return from his trip with Umbridge, there is still 
> something not quite right. 

> This is what DD says and unless we should assume DD is lying then 
> this information is a correct account of what Snape did. 
> 
> Pg 732 UKed Paperback
> 
> `When, however you did not return from your trip into the Forest with 
> Dolorus Umbridge, Professor Snape grew worried that you still 
> believed Sirius to be a captive of Lord Voldemort's. He alerted 
> certain Order Members at once.'
> 
> End Quote from Canon. 

wynnleaf
Actually, I think this may be a plot hole of JKR's.  Or not.

Harry, Hermione, and Umbridge leave the room and head for the forest.
 According to Ron's story later, the remaining DA members must have
*immediately* started a fight with the Inquisitorial Squad and somehow
managed to overpower them just in time for a DA member to look out the
window and see Umbridge, Harry and Hermione go into the forest.  Of
course, the DA members had no idea that Hermione was planning to lead
Umbridge out of the castle in the first place, so another lucky chance
that they just happen to finish the fight and look out the window at
all -- and at just the right moment!

Then, one presumes, they immediately set out after the first three. 
They weren't far behind - they couldn't have been.  Maybe 15 minutes?
 Only the time it takes to walk (more likely run) from the window to
the forest.  Still, Harry, Hermione and Umbridge manage to get deep
into the forest, confront the centaurs, get into a fight, alert Grawp
who hears the noise (the DA members close behind hear nothing
apparently), get rescued by Grawp and leave the centaurs -- all
without the DA catching up.  Then Harry and Hermione head back toward
the castle, meeting up with Ron and Co. in a direct line between the
confrontation with the centaurs and the castle -- meaning that the DA
didn't get lost in the forest trying to find them. 

So what were the DA doing that they were only shortly behind Harry and
Hermione, yet didn't catch up, didn't hear what Grawp heard, and yet
were right there for Harry to bump into at just the right moment to
meet the thestrals?  

JKR was obviously trying to make all this fit, and yet if you take it
apart piece by microscopic piece, you can't make it fit exactly perfectly.

So how did Snape know they went to the forest?  He probably didn't
actually *know* at all.  He most likely simply surmised it after
discovering that they weren't in the castle, and hearing from the
Slytherins that Hermione had told Umbridge that she would lead her to
some secret.

It is purely your *assumption* that Snape actually knew for a fact
that they went into the forest.

Actually, seeing that no one could have told Snape they went to the
forest, as well as realizing that the only other way to *know* they
went would be the incredibly lucky chance of happening to glimpse them
out a window, shows us that it's unlikely Snape *knew* they went at
all.  Since Snape would have absolutely no reason to think Umbridge or
anyone else would be leaving the castle, why would he be peering out
the window except pure chance?

So that would mean that Snape's thinking they went to the forest would
be a guess, not certain knowledge.  First, Snape would have to
discover they were gone from the room and question the Slytherins
who'd tell him Hermione led Umbridge somewhere.  He might not even
have been able to question the Slytherins until after Pomfrey treated
them in the hospital.  Snape would take the injured students to the
hospital, question them, and then search the castle assuming that
Umbridge, Harry and the others would be there somewhere -- and it's a
big castle and he had no Marauder's Map.  Then, once he'd ascertained
that they weren't there and knowing that it was Hermione leading
Umbridge, not vice versa, his next best guess would be that Hermione
led Umbridge into the forest.  So now we have an excellent reason for
why Snape would not know for some time that the children had gone into
the forest.  

Dana
 It took him 
> an awful long time to start getting worried because as we see on how 
> long it takes the Order to arrive at the DoM and Snape's supposed 
> immediate alert and the immediate departure of the Order to the DoM 
> indicates Snape waited a very long time for Harry's return that never 
> came. 

wynnleaf
But now you've laid that to rest.  Snape couldn't have *known* they
went to the forest at all (unless he by strange chance and for no
particular reason was looking out windows and saw them).  Therefore
when he discovered the Slytherins had been overpowered and Umbridge
and the others gone, he'd have had to take kids to the hospital wing,
question them, and then search the castle.  He'd have only figured out
the Harry and Co. probably went to the forest (not even really
certain), after discovering that they weren't in the castle.  That's a
perfectly reasonable explanation for the time between his contacting
Sirius and his alert to the Order.

Dana
> I am not saying this will ever be but canon does not dispute Snape's 
> own claim in HBP that he was responsible for Sirius death and to 
> answer your question would Snape feel bad Sirius died?

wynnleaf
Not "feeling bad" over Sirius' death doesn't make Snape responsible
for it.

It's pretty clear in the fight that Sirius wasn't being targeted by
the DEs any *more* than anyone else.  If Tonks had died and Sirius
lived, would we be wondering if Snape was responsible for her death? 
Sirius was no more likely to die or be injured in the fight than any
other Order member there.  He took the same risks as everyone else.  

Even if Snape had begged Sirius to go, he could not affect the outcome
of who got injured, killed, etc. at the MOM.  As it was, he told
Sirius not to go.  Regardless of past insulting remarks, Sirius would
have gone *anyway* because he would have wanted to help save Harry. 
Sirius didn't go to prove something to Snape.  He went to save Harry.

The DE's were *not* planning on meeting Order members at the MOM.  So
there was no specific plan to kill Sirius that night, nor did Snape's
actions in any way make Sirius go nor did they increase the risk of
Sirius getting killed at the MOM.  All the Order members who went took
the same risk.

Dana
 No, he 
> wouldn't he would consider it justice being served finally, just as 
> we see him actively trying to get Sirius soul sucked in PoA, I do not 
> believe his feelings changed about it one bit and why he is happily 
> boosting about it in HBP. (he is still claiming it lying or not so 
> either he did actively participate or is just so happy about it that 
> he just wished he did, there was no need for him to even claim it) 

wynnleaf
Snape's *feelings* about Sirius dying have nothing whatsoever to do
with whether or not he's guilty of Sirius' death.  Nothing Snape did
increased the likelihood that Sirius would die at the MOM.  

Snape -- as you've nicely shown us -- couldn't have *known* the kids
went to the forest, so he would have taken some time to figure that
out, fully explaining why the Order wasn't alerted right away when the
kids went to the forest.  Snape didn't ask Sirius to go; he told him
to stay.  Sirius did not go to the MOM to prove something to Snape,
but to save Harry.  Sirius stood the same risk of injury or death as
other Order members.

wynnleaf