Who was responsible for Sirius' death? ...

[julie]

No: HPFGUIDX 167663

Dana:
> 
> My point was that Snape allowed Harry to be in Umbridge care, 
without 
> keeping an eye on the situation, someone that already proved 
several 
> times she was out to get him. It was the reason DD was no longer at 
> Hogwarts, she asked Snape for veritaserum twice and now held Harry 
at 
> wand point for the second time (the first after she caught him at 
the 
> RoR). DD sacrificed himself to keep Harry within the castle walls 
but 
> it is not enough for Snape to stick around and this while we know 
he 
> is such a good listener at keyholes ;o). He could have gone around 
> the corner send his patronus to Sirius without leaving the vicinity 
> of Umbridge office but he doesn't. 
> 
> You state that Snape couldn't have known Harry had gone into the 
> Forest but why then is DD referring to him knowing, more then once? 
> Why would he not have said; Snape searched the castle but you were 
no 
> where to be found and no one had seen you or Dolores Umbridge or 
any 
> of your friends and Snape grew worried she might have taken you to 
> the forest or that you have gone to the DoM. He says no such thing. 
> He says Snape grew worried because Harry did not come *out* of the 
> Forest and then claims that Snape intended to search for Harry *IN* 
> the Forest. So unless DD is lying then Snape told DD this himself 
and 
> therefore he knew.

Julie:
First, I don't see why Snape *wouldn't* allow Harry to be
in Umbridge's care. She did get Dumbledore removed from 
Hogwarts, and she's certainly no fan of Harry's, but I don't
see any evidence that Snape--or any other teacher--is concerned
about Harry's physical safety when he's with her. There is no
evidence anyone except Ron and Hermione are even aware of the
blood pen punishment Umbridge uses on Harry, and Harry made it
clear he wasn't going to tell anyone else, certainly not Snape!
Additionally, Snape knows she's tied to the idiots at the 
Ministry not to Voldemort, so he would have no concern that
she'd turn Harry over the him or his Death Eaters. She may
bend the rules to suit herself, but she plays within them,
and there's no reason for Snape to fear for Harry here, in 
fact, it may make him a bit complacent when he realizes
Harry is with Umbridge--the brat certainly can't get into 
more trouble (example, trying to find a way to the Ministry)
if he's with Umbridge. 

Also, when Dumbledore relays the information about Snape 
informing the Order, he is relaying a condensed version as
anyone would. There is no reason to go through each step
Snape took--"Snape went to Umbridge's office, he learned
from the still-conscious Slytherins that you'd gone to 
the forest with Professor Umbridge, then he took the 
unconscious Slytherins to the Infirmary, then he....etc, etc."
He skipped to the pertinent points. I don't know at what
point Snape actually knew they went into the forest, but
he would have gotten the information directly or inferred 
it. So I agree Snape did know, but I don't see that it
would indicate any lack on Snape's part. He knows where
Harry is, who he's with, and really doesn't have any 
reason to suspect actual danger to Harry until too long
a period of time passes. 

Dana:
> 
> Also in previous posts I already mentioned that it might just be a 
> result of sloppy writing to just get the plot pushed forward but it 
> could very well have been intentional. I am not blaming Snape for 
> anything other then doing a bad job of taking care of Harry as an 
> Order member and this makes him just as responsible for the 
disaster 
> at the DoM as DD, especially because Snape IS a spy and he SHOULD 
> have known what LV was up to and he claims as much in HBP when he 
> tells Bella he was ordered to stay behind and if he didn't know 
then 
> he is the most dreadful spy ever. 
> 
> Just as he could have found a way to make sure he never lost Harry 
> out of his sight after he realized (as DD claims) LV had planted 
the 
> vision to get Harry to the DoM and with Harry's track record he 
> should have known better but the guy loses Harry out of his sight 
for 
> several hours enough for Harry to wander the Forest, have an 
> encounter with the centaurs and Gwarp, have a chat with his friends 
> on what to do next, fly to the DoM and then wander around DoM 
before 
> getting into the fight with the DEs and then when he is almost 
> defeated the Order shows up and we learn they left right away, 
after 
> they got the message from Snape. 
> 
> No, Snape tells DD that he was so surprised Harry still believed LV 
> got Sirius, Snape did not realize that he might still try to get 
the 
> DoM, because that is what it actually says. Sorry Headmaster, how 
> could I have known Harry would not trust me enough to take care of 
> things, it is his arrogance always trying to be the hero, never 
wants 
> to leave it to the adults, always takes matter into his own hands 
and 
> now his actions got his dear Godfather killed. If the both of them 
> had listened to me, none of this would have happened. 
> He lost Harry out of his sight and in the care of a woman that 
wanted 
> to distroy DD, his Order and Harry but Snape was not to blame 
because 
> the poor guy how could he have known. How? Because he should have 
> made it his business to know that is how. 

Julie:
We probably will have to agree to disagree, as others besides
myself have pointed out perfectly valid arguments why Snape
wouldn't be worried that Umbridge was with Harry (and though
she was out to "destroy" DD and Harry, she was trying to do
so through manipulation of official channels, not by driving
stakes into their hearts, and Snape probably had little concern
that she would ever achieve even that much). And valid reasons
why he wouldn't suspect Harry *could* get to the Ministry, no
matter how much he wanted to get there (it doesn't matter if
he knows Harry doesn't trust him, since that's not the point).
Without some significant chance occurences, especially the
Threstrals being unexpectedly available, Harry would have 
been as powerless to leave Hogwarts as Snape supposed him to
be. 

Julie, 
who will leave Snape's supposed failure as a spy for another
post