Will the Real Severus Snape please step forward?

[wynnleaf]

No: HPFGUIDX 167670

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dana" <ida3 at ...> wrote:
>
> Magpie:
> <snip> 
> > Because Snape is central to the struggle. He's not taking a 
> > backseat. He's agreeing to spy on the DEs at personal risk.
> 
> Dana:
 what would have put Snape more at risk, returning to LV or not 
> returning? 
> 
> I'd say not returning and sure there was a slight chance, LV would 
> not buy Snape's excuses for not showing up when summoned, 

wynnleaf
"Slight chance??"  Remember that Voldemort would have seen Snape's 
actions regarding Quirrell in SS/PS.  He'd know from Pettigrew that 
Snape had sought to have Sirius kissed by dementors -- who everyone 
including Snape thought was a loyal Voldemort supporter.  He'd know 
that Snape had done nothing to search for Voldemort in the interim, 
and hadn't come when Voldemort first called.  Further, there was 
always the risk that Voldemort's occlumency skills were now a lot 
better (living 12 years in spirit form).

Dana
but not 
> going at all was a sure death sentence. 

<snip>
And as we have been 
> elegantly told, you do not hand in your resignation; it is a 
lifetime 
> of service or death. I think it truly was a bigger *personal* risk 
to 
> not return.


wynnleaf
So I assume you don't believe Dumbledore when he told Draco that he 
could hide Draco and his mother and that Voldemort wouldn't be able 
to find them?  Surely if Dumbledore could have hidden Draco and 
Narcissa, he could have hidden Snape just as well.

Karkarov, who was killed when he ran, wasn't supported by 
Dumbledore.  Snape had been protected by Dumbledore in the past and 
could have requested his help in hiding from Voldemort.

Dana
And of course like Snape 
> claims himself, he had 16 year of information to offer, so the 
chance 
> of him being killed on the spot, was pretty low. 

wynnleaf
Dumbledore appears rather worried when Snape left at the end of GOF, 
and Snape looks pretty stressed as well.  Since Dumbledore 
completely trusted Snape, his concerns were far more likely to be 
for Snape's safety.


> Dana
> And do we see Snape, do anything that truly risks his DE friends? 
I 
> do not think so or least not this time around. 

wynnleaf
I'm not sure what you mean.  The DE's at the MOM weren't at risk 
when Snape sent the Order?  They certainly did fare badly didn't 
they?  Malfoy ends up in prison, and supposedly he was a friend.  
You think Snape assumed all of the DE's would be gone by then and 
therefore out of danger from the Order?  IMO, if Snape is really 
trying to be loyal to Voldemort and act in his best interest, Snape 
is incompetent and stupid.  Lucky for him, Voldemort doesn't appear 
to know who sent the Order members.

Or do you mean Snape didn't take any risks?  You don't consider the 
Unbreakable Vow a risk?  Wow.  If Snape had not been there to 
protect Draco when Harry hit him with the Sectumsempra, he'd have 
died.  Protecting Draco was not some easy walk in the park, and 
failure would be at the forfeit of Snape's life.

>Dana 
> Not sending the Order would also not have been an option because 
he 
> would have lost his cover with DD. 

wynnleaf
So basically, even though Dumbledore continued to trust Snape even 
after learning about Snape's unbreakable vow, he would have lost his 
trust in Snape if Snape had said something like "I never knew they 
went into the forest," or "I never thought they could make it to 
London" or some other such reason for not knowing that the group had 
gone to London.  Sorry, that doesn't make sense.  On the one hand, 
we have Dumbledore willing to trust Snape even through something 
that appears highly suspicious (the UV), versus losing his trust in 
Snape because of something that even Evil!Snape could come up with 
several reasonable excuses to explain.

Dana
Sure I do not think LV was happy, 
> Snape send them at all but I do not believe DD would have found it 
> very believable if Snape had done nothing after hearing Harry 
tried 
> to warn him 

wynnleaf
Dumbledore is starting to sound very wishy washy in your scenario.  
He trusts Snape even though Snape's been a death eater, even though 
Snape delivered the prophecy to Voldemort, even though he made an 
unbreakable vow with Narcissa (and yes, Dumbledore had to have known 
about it eventually), yet he looses his trust over this?  

>Dnna 
> It seems to me the personal risk is indeed very *personal* because 
it 
> only includes keeping Snape safe.

wynnleaf
So basically, you're saying that Dumbledore has it all wrong when he 
thought Snape (in the first war) was taking great personal risks, 
because Dumbledore didn't figure out that Snape really had no other 
choice.  Snape had no other choices due to the fact that Dumbledore 
couldn't have hidden Snape from Voldemort successfully?  Oh, or 
maybe Dumbledore just doesn't realize that he *can't* really hide 
people successfully.  Is that what you mean?

 >Dana 
> Snape pretty much hates every Order Member so one less is just one 
> less to hate. 

wynnleaf
Huh?  Canon?  We know he hates the Maruaders, but that's only two 
Order members.  Where's your canon for Snape's opinion of anyone 
else?  His comment to Tonks about her patronus seems more targeted 
at his opinion of Lupin.  He seems to get along find with McGonagall 
and even seems sort of glad at her return at the end of OOTP.  I see 
no animosity from him toward Arthur or Molly or their older sons, or 
Shacklebolt, or anyone else.  He does seem to have a problem with 
Moody, but Moody never believed in Snape's turning away from 
Voldemort, so that's understandable.  I don't see that he *hates* 
Moody.

Dana
We do not see him go to any real trouble keeping anyone 
> of them safe, at least not at any *personal* risk. He does not 
seem 
> to provide them any information to keep them one step ahead of LV. 

wynnleaf
How could you possibly know this?  Harry is not an Order member, and 
therefore we never see one Order meeting, where presumably any such 
information is passed along.  We have no particular information that 
Lupin is doing any good as a spy, either, because we never see his 
reports.  

Dana
At 
> least we do not see any Order activity after he (supposedly) 
> contacted Sirius. I do not believe Sirius would have set back and 
do 
> nothing but I do not mind anyone calling me biased ;)

wynnleaf
Snape must have contacted Sirius the first time.  When Snape 
contacted the Order the second time, 4 Order members were present 
including Sirius.  They certainly must have heard from Sirius 
whether or not this was a completely new situation to Sirius (he'd 
heard nothing previously), or whether he'd gotten an earlier 
communication from Snape.  

wynnleaf