Who was responsible for Sirius' death? ...

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 167714

Phew--this is long. Sorry!

JW
> *BTW, one way to end the debate is for everybody to realize that 
Snape
> is Only Out For Himself. He aspires to replace LV. (Perhaps that
> ambition is sufficient for DD's trust in him - DD trusts that he 
will
> do NOTHING that strengthens LV.)  All of Snape's actions seem to
> support Harry (within the competency of Snape's abilities - hence 
the
> failure to TEACH occlumency).  Snape needs the Chosen One to help
> defeat LV.  Snape also needs to weaken the Order in order for him 
to
> become ruler of the WW. Hence, his best course is to weaken both 
sides
> while assuring that they continue to both fight each other and 
rely on
> him. I believe that the climactic scenes of both OotP and HBP can 
be
> interpreted to support this conjecture.


Magpie:
Actually, that's taking a side in the debate. Some of us do not at 
all see Snape's actions as fitting this idea that he's out for 
himself and simply needing the Chosen One to defeat LV first.

Dana:
LV also knows Snape did not know LV was in the back of Quirrell's
head and therefore it was not an action against LV but against
Quirrell and in the end Snape did nothing that prevented Quirrell
getting to the Mirror.

I do not see what LV would care about Snape trying to get Sirius soul
sucked, he knows Sirius was never on his side and getting Sirius soul
sucked would therefore HELP LV because now no one would be looking
for Wormtail and with it Wormtail had no where else to go then to LV
and maybe you missed it but this helped LV get back to power.

Magpie:
Aren't these types of things exactly the type of things you claim 
show that Snape is disloyal to Dumbledore? I mean, that he's failing 
to really show that he's with him? What you're repeating here are 
certainly Snape's explanations for his actions, but there was of 
course a big chance LV would consider him disloyal because they hint 
at Snape's loyalties being with Dumbledore. The Stone because 
Dumbledore is trying to keep it, and Sirius because it shows him 
angry at Sirius for getting the Potters' killed--with Snape angrily 
saying that he "told" James not to trust Sirius. Sure LV ultimately 
accepts these explanations, but that doesn't mean he had to have 
accepted them when he gets angry at people for not searching him out 
for all these years. There's always a risk when you're dealing with 
LV. If you take that away from him, he's not a scary psycho villain. 
All the DEs seem a bit scared about returning to him even if they 
never spied for DD.

Dana:
Snape indeed doesn't come at the first call but Snape has a good
excuse for LV to buy; that he was waiting for DD's orders because
only then could he remain his position at Hogwarts and Barty is soul
sucked so he can't tell LV Snape was involved in his capture.

I think you meant LV's legilimency skills are now better but Snape's
occlumency skills are now better then when he was 22 too.

Magpie:
But that's still working backwards, assuming that because LV did buy 
it it was foolproof. Any time you deal with LV you're putting 
yourself in danger, even if you're not hiding the fact that you're 
really working against him. Obviously Snape did live to tell the 
tale of his return to LV, but I don't think you can just dismiss all 
danger as if LV was of course going to accept it. (Especially while 
at the same time claiming that Snape *had* to send the DEs to the 
MoM because the much more sensitive and more forgiving Dumbledore 
would have banished him for not doing it.) If we accept that Snape 
is a spy for DD (which I realize not everyone does) then there's a 
risk involved.

Dana:
Snape has information on DD and Harry from a close objective and he
will be useful as a spy and therefore the chance that LV would kill
him on the spot where very slim and besides Snape had more chance
trying to convince LV of his usefulness then not trying at all
because if he hadn't his death was a sure thing.

Magpie:
I don't think we can just assume that Snape's death was more assured 
if he allowed Dumbledore to hide him than if he returned with a lie. 
If a Mafia boss that I had previously worked for got out of prison 
and was calling for all his old allies, and I no longer was one, I 
would consider it far more of a risk to go undercover to work for 
the FBI then to enter witness protection. Sure I might have danger 
either way, but how could I ever be safer putting myself in the 
boss' hands?

Dana:
Besides we see LV not killing Wormtail on the spot either not just
because he is to weak but because he is useful and he did much worse
then Snape did.

Magpie:
He did? How? Didn't Wormtail seek LV out and bring him back to life 
and care for him for months? And he hasn't been DD's ally for years 
and never protected Harry from anything.

Dana:
Snape was not hidden over these years, he was still in regular
contact with Lucius and maintaining of old ties.
Snape sudden death just because LV rose back to power would not be
very believable now would it. And just being in the protection of DD
would not keep Snape safe at all times either but going back to LV
and convince him of his usefulness would.

Magpie:
I think it could be made believable, given that DD would know the 
situation as well as anyone else. We don't know what kind of contact 
he had with Lucius or what other ties he maintained, if any. We 
can't just assume these things are impossible to get to the idea 
that spying on Lord Voldemort is not a dangerous job, even compared 
to being protected by Dumbledore. I think you have to accept that 
while Snape can be in danger both ways, agreeing to spy (if that's 
what he's really doing) is an act of bravery, especially compared to 
being hidden by Dumbledore.

Dana:
Besides what has Snape done that LV knows about, that would grant a
killing on the spot. As we see other DEs have done far worse things
and LV does not kill them. Avery fails to get him the prophecy but LV
does not kill him. Lucius destroyed the diary and went against LV's
orders but he doesn't kill him on the spot. The only one we see
ending up death is Karkaroff and he ran instead of rejoining and he
actively took out several of LV's DEs after LV's down fall and this
is common knowledge while if Snape has ever contributed to the
capture of DEs, it isn't known.

Magpie:
Karkaroff is dead because he betrayed LV and tried to leave the DEs. 
Which is why if it's discovered that Snape is loyal to Dumbledore he 
would be killed on the spot. Lucius and Avery did not leave LV's 
service as DDM!Snape has. That's why he's in danger if LV finds out 
the truth or doesn't want to take the chance.

Dana:
Nothing would suggest Snape would not get away with what he has to
offer and therefore he was at greater risk defying LV after his rise
back to power then joining him even if it was late.

Magpie:
Why would nothing suggest Snape would not get away with it? You 
yourself don't seem like you'd let him get away with it, based on 
how you judge Snape's behavior in OotP. And remember Voldemort's a 
sociopath. He's not somebody you can rely on to him to avoid 
violence except when necessary.

Dana:
Sure why would Dumbledore not worry but if he thought the chances for
Snape's survival were as slim as you want to suggest then why would
DD even suggest him returning?

Magpie:
Because having Snape as a spy on Voldemort would be valuable to the 
cause, naturally. He's not sending him back to Voldemort to protect 
him.

wynnleaf
> I'm not sure what you mean. The DE's at the MOM weren't at risk
> when Snape sent the Order? They certainly did fare badly didn't
> they? Malfoy ends up in prison, and supposedly he was a friend.

Dana:
Was that Snape fault or Lucius? If Lucius hadn't let Harry thwart him
and swooped in and out as he was supposed to do, was sending the
Order, at the time we see them arrive, really to prevent Lucius from
performing his task successfully?

Magpie:
It was Snape's fault, of course. The fact that if Lucius had gotten 
in and out sooner the Order wouldn't have been able to save Harry 
hardly makes it Lucius' fault that they were there at all. Lucius 
being at the MoM and trying to get the Prophecy--however long that 
took--was part of LV's plan. Snape's sending a bunch of Order 
members to the MoM was *not* LV's plan. It's nobody's plan except 
Snape's. Why introduce them into the situation at all?

Dana:
First we have to believe Snape didn't think Harry would be able to
get to the DoM but now we have to believe Snape thought Harry would
be giving Lucius such a hard time that he fails to get the task
preformed swiftly? 

Magpie:
We only have to believe that Snape didn't think Harry would be able 
to get to the DoM. Anything about Snape calculating how long Harry 
could keep Lucius at bay has nothing to do with canon. Snape simply 
sent the Order when he realized Harry had gone to the MoM. For all 
Snape knows Harry hasn't even arrived at the MoM at the point he 
sends the Order. So no, there's no reason to believe Snape is 
relying on Lucius taking care of Harry quickly at all.

Dana:
Him sending the Order would not have caused the DEs
trouble if they had preformed there task as they should have. It was
not an active attempt on Snape's part to thwart LV's plan because if
Snape really wanted to thwart LV's plan then he would have alerted
the Order sooner and made sure someone was at the DoM just in case
but we see no Order activity before they show up at the DoM. They
were just gathering at HQ for a meeting with DD.

Magpie:
Yes, it is an action on Snape's part that does thwart Voldemort's 
plan. You're basing your conclusions on the very premise you're 
supposed to be proving. It's *you* who are calculating that if 
Lucius had been quicker taking care of Harry they would have been 
out of there, working backwards from what happened. There's 
absolutely nothing in canon that suggests that Snape could do such a 
thing, since he didn't know when Harry left or how he was traveling. 
It's not even like the timeframe leaves that much room for error if 
that's what Snape was trying to do.   

wynnleaf
> Dumbledore is starting to sound very wishy washy in your scenario.
> He trusts Snape even though Snape's been a death eater, even though
> Snape delivered the prophecy to Voldemort, even though he made an
> unbreakable vow with Narcissa (and yes, Dumbledore had to have
known
> about it eventually), yet he looses his trust over this?

Dana:
To some extent he indeed does sound wishy washy for still wanting to
believe in Snape's good side but to me DD's actions in HBP does read
that he knew something was up and that Snape let his personal
feelings get in the way from performing his Order duties as he
should. DD knows the DADA job is jinxed and according to JKR herself
DD never gave the job to Snape because he thought it would bring out
the worst in Snape. So what changed? Why did DD change his mind? Why
did he no longer consider Snape to be valuable enough to protect him
against the pull the Dark Side had on him?

Magpie:
Actually, Dumbledore *isn't* wishy-washy in HBP at all. He stands 
very firm on trusting Snape completely. The questions about the DADA 
job are important, imo, but I see no sign in HBP that Dumbledore is 
motivated by a feeling that Snape is letting his personal duties get 
in the way of performing his Order duties--though, of course, 
letting your personal feelings interfere with your duties is 
something Dumbledore deals with with practically all his Order 
members at one point or another.

wynnleaf
> So basically, you're saying that Dumbledore has it all wrong when
he
> thought Snape (in the first war) was taking great personal risks,
> because Dumbledore didn't figure out that Snape really had no other
> choice.

Dana:
We do not know what Snape did in the first war, only that he gave DD
information on who the target family would be and DD himself states
it was because he owed James a debt because James once saved Snape's
life. We do not know if besides this Snape did anything else. We
certainly do not see him being responsible for the capture of DEs
after OotP and he would surely know the locations where some of them
were hiding out.

Magpie:
But Dumbledore knows what Snape did in the first war and he's the 
one who's speaking. The idea that Snape has failed in capturing DEs 
after OotP is not anything anybody in canon, especially Dumbledore, 
who is his boss, has suggested he failed at doing. DD might consider 
rounding up the DEs a short-sighted use for Snape as a spy--and as 
well there's actually no reason to believe that Snape knows where 
all the DEs are hiding out. Why would he know about anybody except 
himself and his own roommate Wormtongue?

Dana:
No, we actually see no one get caught as a direct result of Snape
actions because the DoM fiasco was due to Lucius failure to get out
in time not because it was an active attempt on Snape's part to get
them caught.

Magpie:
All the DEs caught at the MoM are caught as a direct result of 
Snape's actions. Even with your own interpretation that Snape was 
kinda hoping the Order would get there too late, it's still Snape's 
intentional actions that get them caught far more than Lucius taking 
a bit too long--in your view, since it's not like Lucius had run 
through the mission with a stopwatch first and had a record he was 
supposed to beat, nor does Snape have any idea what time Harry left 
for or got to the Ministry in order to start timing when the whole 
fiasco even started. 

Dana:
And we also see at the end of HBP that many had doubts about Snape's
loyalties and only trusted him because DD asked them too. Such a nice
man, how could no one believe Snape being loyal while he treated any
of them in such trust worthy way? Providing them with so much
information, that prevented so many horrible things from happening,
all at great personal risk. <G>

Magpie:
It seemed to be that everyone was saying they were suspicious of 
Snape's being in the Order to begin with, but it's not like anybody 
comes out and says, "I've always been suspcious of him because he's 
never really given us any information!" Nobody expressed problems 
with Snape's *work* as an Order member. They just never had any idea 
why he was let into the Order to begin with and of course noted that 
he was unpleasant to work with. That's what they were basing on 
Dumbledore's trust--you'd think Dumbledore might have not worked 
quite so hard in telling everyone that he trusted Snape completely 
if they had to depend on him, if Dumbledore didn't believe it. One 
might expect something more like the way he introduced Slughorn, 
saying that he was okay, but to watch certain things about him. 

wynnleaf
> How could you possibly know this? Harry is not an Order member,
and
> therefore we never see one Order meeting, where presumably any such
> information is passed along. We have no particular information
that
> Lupin is doing any good as a spy, either, because we never see his
> reports.

Dana:
We know this because the knowledge of LV's plans is not contributed
to Snape providing information.Nothing Snape did caused the Order to
be one step ahead of LV. They were not at the DoM to intercept Harry,
just in case against all odds he would find a way to get there. 

Magpie:
We really don't know anything. All the stuff the spies do is waved 
away. You're coming up stuff Snape could be doing so that he can not 
do it, but nobody brings it up in canon. Having a spy in LV's camp 
isn't like having somebody in LV's head. We can't say "They haven't 
vanquished LV, so obviously Snape is useless as a spy." And of 
course, when they *are* one step of LV (or at least not far enough 
behind that they can't catch up) due to Snape you claim Snape just 
accidentally put them there while trying to keep them even further 
behind.


Dana:
We see no activity while the Order has MoM employees, which could 
have raised the alarm that it seemed someone broke into the DoM. In 
HBP we see no activity to actively prevent Draco from getting DEs 
into the castle. How come Snape never found out Draco was doing 
something in the RoR while Harry could. Snape knew more about 
Draco's task then Harry. He could have secured the RoR so Draco 
would no longer have access, even if he did not know what he was 
doing in there. And if Draco could not get DEs into the castle then 
it would have been slim, Snape would have ever had to take over 
Draco's task and kill DD.

Magpie:
Again, you seem to be starting from the end as if that's proof that 
Snape couldn't have been trying to do anything. What's going on at 
the MoM does not automatically come under "stuff Snape's in charge 
of" and Dumbledore has a whole scene at the end of HBP where he 
explains his own mistakes in dealing with Draco. Dumbledore knew 
Draco was working in the RoR and could also have secured the room as 
well. He did not want the room secured. He's being completely hands-
off with Draco, and secure in the fact that Draco can't get anybody 
into the castle. 

Dana:
There is absolutely no indication that information provided by Snape 
was of any significance to the Order and keep them ahead of LV.
These reports do not seem to contain any valuable information. One
could even conclude that Snape provided information that it made the
Order conclude guard duties where no longer necessary because no one
is there watching the DoM while just a few weeks there was someone
there every night. The MoM caught one of them there so how is it,
that the alarm could not be raised because Lucius had broken into the
DoM?

Magpie:
They don't contain any valuable information based on what--your own 
years of experience in Auror intelligence? You don't even know what 
the reports are or what the reaction to it is or if the lack of 
alarms or guards at the MoM is anything Snape (who's at Hogwarts) 
would know about at all. Since we have no idea what reports Snape is 
giving--and I would add, since to me it doesn't seem like JKR is 
writing an espionage novel and has thought it through any more than 
Snape bringing valuable information about war strategy--you can't 
make any judgments on Snape as a spy based on how the war's going 
right now. Just as you claim Snape's not keeping them a step ahead 
of LV, so could I claim Snape's the only one keeping them one step 
behind LV. 

Dana:
It is surely not proof it was Snape's intention to prevent LV's
plan from being successful. Maybe it was just bad luck on Snape's
part that Lucius was still there. At least canon does not dispute
this view.

Magpie:
Canon not disputing the view means very little. You can't disprove a 
negative. I could just as easily say that it was "just bad luck" on 
Snape's part that all his brilliant spy reports didn't end in LV 
being destroyed by now due to Mad-Eye moving too slowly.

Dana:
DD was due there shortly it makes equally as much sense that the
Order Members where there to have a meeting with him.
To me it doesn't make sense if Snape truly informed Sirius on the
current situation that Sirius did nothing but sit there waiting for
Snape to contact him again, while we see him rush out the second time
(supposedly) without much hesitation.

Magpie:
The rush the second time was because Harry was no longer at Hogwarts 
and was in danger. Or perhaps Sirius, too, was trying to give Lucius 
enough time to get the Prophecy.;-)

Dana:
 We see him wanting to come up
there just because Snape did not want to teach Harry occlumency
anymore. Do you really believe Sirius would not have taken the risk
to get to Harry if he had known what was going on? I must certainly
do not believe that at all.To me it makes sense that if Snape indeed 
contacted Sirius, it was to ask if he heard any news on DD and how 
he knew to ask Sirius to stay behind to inform DD about what was 
happening.

Magpie:
Sirius did find out what was happening because he was at the MoM. I 
think if he had thought Snape lied to him the first time he'd have 
said so and it would have been an issue. Instead all the Order knows 
how things went down, including Dumbledore, and nobody sees a 
problem with it.

Magpie:
> I don't think there's any doubt that "personal" means Snape. That's
> what Snape is doing by pretending to be a DE when he's not. If he's
> found out he will be killed.
<snip>

Dana:
To risk being found out you have to actually do something that would
risk being found out but we see Bella only accuses him from
slithering in and out of action without putting his own life on the
line for LV's cause, not that he is provided DD information that
risked any of LV's operations.

Magpie:
If LV finds out that DDM!Snape is really loyal to Dumbledore, he 
will be killed. Intentionally backing out of DE stuff is reason to 
be killed in itself. Bellatrix is not only accusing Snape of 
protecting his own skin, but of perhaps being disloyal, which would 
get him punished.

Dana:
You can't have it both ways Snape not doing anything to keep his
cover or Snape risking his cover by providing the necessary
information. We see him do the former more then the latter and we see
no Order activity that is contributed to information Snape has
provided. And when he finally does it was almost to late and
therefore it doesn't seem that it was actually his intention for the
DEs to fail just his attempt to cover his own butt. 

Magpie:
I'm not trying to have it both ways. I have never denied that Snape 
is risking his cover by providing information to DD. That's what 
spies do. But risking their cover by passing information is not 
blowing their cover stupidly. Pre-HBP it's the DE side who accuse 
Snape of slithering out of action, not the Order side--the Order's 
got him going in and out with reports. We don't know what 
information Snape is passing because our view is limited to stuff 
that concerns Harry. It could certainly turn out that Snape was 
really working for LV, but the fact that the good guys don't easily 
outwit Voldemort at every turn is in no way proof that Snape can't 
be doing his job as a spy. The fact that it was almost too late when 
Snape acted in OotP is more proof of what's dramatic, imo, than 
proof that Snape wasn't acting decisively.

Dana:
But was it intentional. Why would DD have to need to order Snape to
put the DEs in danger? That is his job as a spy to make sure the DEs
and LV don't get their way. In war you do not sent a spy to have some
tea parties with the enemy, you want him to provide you with
information to help you win the war. And make sure you can move
before the enemy does.

Magpie:
You can't keep saying "It wasn't intentional" as if it's a canonical 
fact when it's the very theory I thought you were trying to prove. 
Snape's job is a spy is not necessarily to target certain DEs and 
put them in danger--he's not in charge of DEs. There are plenty of 
spies who have had tea parties with the enemy and not put other 
agents in danger while *also* providing information to help you win 
the war. (Some spies don't do anything--that's why they're called 
sleepers.) Snape, if you recall, is stationed at Hogwarts. His job 
for LV is to spy on Dumbledore. He's not out in the field with the 
DEs leading their missions.

Dana:
I do not understand this at all. What is Snape purpose as a spy if he
does not provide the Order with information to prevent stuff from
happening? If the Order can move before LV is able to execute his
plans, then automatically the people involved are less at risk from
being killed then to have to fight DEs one on one.

Magpie:
It means that there is a lot of stuff happening and no spy would 
just be expected to be feeding every single thing happening on the 
other side before it happens so that it's prevented. There are 
different spies with different access to information given different 
jobs. Being a spy doesn't mean Snape knows every single thing that 
might go down beforehand. 

Dana:
Snape job at Hogwarts that night was not only that of a spy but also
the last Order Member to protect Harry and this alone means that
Snape was responsible for keeping Harry at arms length. 

Magpie:
Harry was rather more than an arm's length from Voldemort. He was 
safe at Hogwarts. Once Snape discovered that he wasn't, Snape acted 
to protect him by sending the Order. Though Snape is not "directing" 
the Order's actions in that they need an order from him to move. 
Harr often leaves Order supervision for hours at a time when he's at 
Hogwarts.

Dana:
This is not just Harry going on
some school trip, this is serious war business but Snape treats it
like Harry is just facing another detention with Dolores.

Magpie:
He was facing another detention with Dolores. That is, until Dolores 
was attacked and Harry flew off on his own. When Snape discovered 
that happened, according to Dumbledore, he treated it as exactly 
what it was. 

Dana:
Maybe you are forgetting that Dolores had the power to expel Harry
for breaking into her office, just because she wants some information
out of Harry first does not mean she would not have removed him from
the school grounds later. It is not Snape that prevents this from
happening but Hermione. She wanted Harry out of Hogwarts the first 
time she caught him doing something against the law and now she 
caught him red handed. So the Order should have been preparing to 
get to Harry in case Dolores would try to get him out of Hogwarts 
and that is why them sitting there waiting at HQ makes no sense at 
all if they had information on current events.

Magpie:
If Umbridge decided to expel Harry, that would be dealt with when it 
was dealt with. It's not like Harry would be expelled to LV's house. 
Since Snape noticed when Harry didn't come from the forest, there's 
no reason to think he wouldn't have been front and center if Harry 
returned from the forest to be expelled. There's no reason Snape 
wouldn't be there to act if Harry was leaving the grounds--he does 
act when he discovers Harry's left the grounds for a much worse 
reason. This seems to be a nightmare situation made up just to give 
Snape something to not do again, yet nobody in the Order questions 
his actions at all.

And yet at the same time, it calls into question why on earth Snape 
called the Order. If he's already been unbelievably remiss in his 
actions by allowing Harry to be in Umbridge's presence, why does he 
suddenly decide he has to send the Order? The whole thing falls 
under the same excuse of Snape not knowing there was a problem. You 
seem to be on the one hand saying that Umbridge was reason enough 
for DDM!Snape to get involved, and then arbitrarily mark the moment 
when he does act as the point at which he must.

Dana:
If Snape had informed the Order, LV was setting his plan into motion
then Order Members could have been there to prevent the entire ordeal
at the DoM and there would have been no need to fight anyone, now
would there. No Harry no LV plan to work out.

Magpie:
There wouldn't have been any need to fight regardless if Harry 
hadn't gone to the MoM. They seem to feel that *this* is the 
important bit of information, and it makes sense. All Voldemort has 
done is send Harry an upsetting vision. If Harry had ignored it, 
there would be nothing to be done at the Ministry for either DEs or 
the Order. Voldemort has been sending Harry visions all year, if you 
recall, and they don't warrant a mad dash to the Ministry. It's only 
when Harry goes that there's a problem. 

Dana:
Also Snape getting the information from Harry that LV is setting his
plan, to get Harry to the DoM, in motion should be enough to motivate
Snape into action but it doesn't.

Magpie:
LV has been setting this plan all year, sending Harry visions of the 
Ministry that make him want to go there and look in the door. 
Knowing that LV is now trying to get Harry to the Ministry with 
visions of Sirius hurt there doesn't immediately mean anything. It's 
only if Harry goes there that LV's plan can be set in action.

Dana:
Just because it would have made it boring, doesn't mean Snape actions
therefore are the right one. JKR did not write Snape's actions to
prevent the reader getting bored.

Magpie:
Well, I think avoiding boring was part of the reason. She is 
entertaining us.:-) But regardless, I said it was also *unrealistic* 
to have Snape behaving the way you would have behave, where LV never 
scores a blow because he's got this one guy who's just telling 
everything to Dumbledore as soon as he hears it. JKR may not be 
writing the most realistic of wars, but she writes her evil a little 
more realistically than that.

Dana:
And just because Snape says to Sirius he should stay behind does not
mean he activly tried to keep the guy out of harms way. 

Magpie:
So what? Telling the guy to stay behind was enough. And more people 
than Snape did it. As you say, Sirius left GP to protect Harry. And 
btw, Fred Weasley also goads Sirius about being a coward, and it 
hits him more deeply when Fred does it. Sirius himself can't stand 
staying locked up and not risking his life. I think you have to go 
through a lot of steps before you arrive at Snape being responsible 
or being Sirius' keeper.

Dana:
To be honest we do see LV get advantage from information that could
have been provided by Snape, mainly there not being an Order Member
left at Hogwarts besides Snape to protect Harry and creating the
perfect moment for LV to make his move.

Magpie:
So you're willing to imagine helpful information that Snape is 
giving to LV, but unwilling to imagine Snape's providing anything to 
Dumbledore, even though we've got equally little information on 
either?

Dana:
Yes, he has kept it spotless because Bella never accuses Snape from
giving sensitive information to DD; she accuses him from not being a
proud DE and openly fight for LV's cause. She also does not accuse
him for messing up the DoM plan but accusing him from not being there
to fight along side them. She even asks him if DD never suspects
Snape, not that it seems he is more on DD's side then theirs. What
she is accusing him of is not risking his own life while others have
to be on the frontline, not that he is risking their position on that
frontline.

Magpie:
I don't think it's spotless since he's got to do some explaining. 
She can't accuse him of not passing information from Dumbledore for 
the same reason you really can't accuse him of not passing 
information from LV: she doesn't know what gets passed. The fact 
that she doesn't accuse him of sending the Order to the MoM says to 
me she doesn't know that he did it--I don't know if he could have 
explained that one away with everything else. She is, imo, accusing 
him of being *disloyal* and not just lazy, because she can't say it 
outright. Snape, iirc, explicitly says this, that Bellatrix is 
suggesting that LV has been tricked by a spy. 

Dana:
Snape could have done loots of things that night but he just didn't
and he later makes excuses he couldn't have known.
But it does not excuses him for not keeping an eye on Harry while in
the company of Dolores because she too is a potential threat to Harry
safety and he should have known everything that was going on included
those 4 other kids getting away from the IS and going after Harry. 

Magpie:
I don't see why it's an excuse. It could just be the truth. You're 
repeated claims that as a spy Snape's supposed to be protecting 
Harry from other teachers at the school and that Harry being in 
Umbridge's presence should naturally tell Snape that Harry's found 
some way to get to London, is unconvincing. Usually the teacher 
Harry would want to be protected from is Snape. 

Dana:
But it is apparently not Snape business to keep Harry safe because it
is was never Snape's job to keep people safe, right?

Magpie:
Snape does keep Harry safe. He's the one that sends the Order. 
Earlier in the year, when there were other Order members at the 
school, they allowed Harry to be alone with Umbridge too.

Dana:
But according to many it is perfectly natural for Snape to do nothing
that would risk his cover because he is such a good spy, yet is not
able to spy on Dolores and he certainly is not spying on LV because
DD never knew about LV having information that would make it able to
lure Harry to the DoM or even that it was his plan to use Harry to
get to the prophecy because he gets the information about the former
from Kreacher and he never mentions he thought about LV using Harry
this way, he was worried LV would try and posses Harry or even to use
Harry to spy on DD but never is it mentioned that Snape gave
information about LV's true plan while LV himself mentions that
*months* of careful planning has gone to waste, while he shows up at
the DoM himself.

Magpie:
I think it's very possible that Snape, whom LV has at Hogwarts 
spying on Dumbledore, was not kept abreast of every single step of a 
plan LV was not including him in to begin with. You can rage against 
Snape not knowing that Kreacher provided LV with the information 
that Harry loved Sirius, but that doesn't make it impossible that 
Snape had any way of knowing it. Obviously neither Snape, nor the 
Order, is *completely* clueless about what the plan is. Snape knows 
that Harry's being sent visions about the MoM, he knows that he's 
sent him a vision of Sirius and that Harry has now gone to the MoM 
to "rescue" him. And JKR provides many reasons why this all comes 
together in tragedy--including the fact that DD refused to tell 
Harry what was going on, as Sirius wanted to. Just as in HBP, 
everyone counted on Hogwarts being inpenatrable. As long as Harry 
was there, there was no problem. Just because something happened a 
certain way, doesn't mean it was the most obvious way everything was 
happening at the time. 

Dana:
I never implied Snape is LV's man but is actions do not risk, him
being found out as DDM either. His actions reflect his own attempt to
keep himself on both side of the fence and not do anything that would
risk this position at least not before HBP.

Magpie:
Oh, I was mistaken there. I assumed you were saying he was LV!Man. 
But it seems you're saying it was only in HBP that he declared 
himself--as either LV's man or just not DDM. 

I admit the trouble I have here is that it basically erases Snape as 
a character. Instead of being someone who wants something and acts 
decisively, he's just drifting back and forth making half-actions 
one way and then the other. That doesn't sound like Snape to me. We 
do, of course, see actions without heart in HBP as a plot device, 
but I think that just shows the contrast between those actions and 
that character and Snape.

Neri:
I never implied Snape is LV's man but is actions do not risk, him
being found out as DDM either. His actions reflect his own attempt to
keep himself on both side of the fence and not do anything that would
risk this position at least not before HBP.

Magpie:
But then, if strained relations between Lupin and Fenrir are enough 
to explain why Lupin doesn't know, the same would apply to Snape. 
We're given reasons for secrecy from Snape as well.

Neri:
Besides, Lupin at least never brags about being an agent, he never
uses it as an excuse to slither away from battle, and Order members
don't risk their lives or die so Lupin can maintain his cover.

Magpie:
But when does Snape do this? I honestly don't remember him bragging 
too much about being an agent or slithering out of battle. Nor do I 
ever recall Order members dying to save Snape's cover.

-m