Will the Real Severus Snape please step forward?

Thu Apr 19 16:09:21 UTC 2007

No: HPFGUIDX 167744

--- --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Goddlefrood" Message #167735
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/167735
wrote:

Goddlefrood:

> I have a prediction relative to this, 
> which is that Lily was responsible for the Potions tips 
> contained in Snape's copy of Advanced Potions. Snape copied 
> from her, thus becoming more proficient at Potions himself 
> to the extent that he is often described in canon as the 
> Potions Master. Some of the spells, such as Levicorpus and 
> Sectumsempra were Snape's inventions, but IMO, the Potions 
> tips were not. That Lily was a widely respected and talented 
> witch would also lead to my conclusion that Snape revered 
> Lily without necessarily being in love with her.

"K":

I believe Snape and Lily worked together but what purpose would there
be having Snape copy from Lily? Must the revered Lily be so perfect? 
IMO it was Lily who copied from Snape. Slughorn repeatedly states that
Harry is like his mother. What set Harry apart from the other students
in NEWT Potions was the book that belonged to the HBP and I believe
that is what set Lily apart. She too benefited from the help of the
Half-Blood Prince. This is not to say Lily didn't have any potions
talent, just that it was Snape who was the true potions expert.

---------------

Good lord, it's clear you've inherited your mother's talent. She was a
dab hand at Potions, Lily was!
Ch 9/HBP

"Oh, you're like your mother...
Ch 18/HBP

"Just like his mother, she had the same intuitive grasp of
potion-making, it's undoubtedly from Lily he gets it..
Ch18/HBP

.I really don't know where you get these brain waves, my boy...unless --"

Harry pushed the Half-Blood Prince's book deeper into his bag with his
foot.

"--it's just your mother's genes coming out in you!"
Ch 22/HBP

---------------

Goddlefrood:

> Even though there is a very good likelihood that Severus and 
> Lily were in the same NEWT level Potions class, it is unlikely 
> that their nexus to each other existed at any level other than 
> in the classroom. This would be supported by the fact that 
> Severus and Lily were in different houses and from what we have 
> been shown there is little interaction between houses except in 
> class or at Quidditch matches.

"K":

I disagree. :) I believe Snape was the "awful boy" Petunia was
referring to in OoP. I commented on this theory before.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/155655

Goddlefrood:

> It is noted that Severus was saddened by Lily's death, however 
> the reason for this is more likely to have been because he did 
> not realise the consequence of what his reporting the partial 
> prophesy to Voldemort would be than that he was in love with 
> her, which view I do not favour.

"K":

I do not favor the view of Snape in love with Lily whatsoever but I do
believe there are hints to at least a friendship between the two. The
NEWT class together, Lily copying from Snape, the Muffliato spell
which would allow the two of them to converse in class without being
overheard, the 'awful boy' visit, the Pensieve memory (Lily defending
Snape), and the lack of any negative word from Snape concerning Lily
after six books. Plus, the Shrieking Shack scene can be read as Snape
finally catching the traitor, the one responsible for giving Voldemort
the information needed to find the Potter's, which in turn led to the
death of Lily. I can point to this scene and say it shows a man who 
was more than saddened by the death of Lily.

Even at the end of HBP, when Harry makes a statement concerning Snape
hating Lily, no one makes a comment. So while I totally dislike any
Snape/Lily love angle, unless it was Snape being Lily's true love, I
think there was more to the two of them than just a potions class.

---------------

"And Dumbledore believed that? said Lupin incredulously. "Dumbledore
believed Snape was sorry James was dead? Snape hated James..."

"And he didn't think my mother was worth a damn either," said Harry,
"because she was Muggle-born...'Mudblood,' he called her..."
Ch 29/HBP 

--------------  

Goddlefrood:

> It is also rather unlikely, but admittedly not quite impossible, 
> for Snape to have gained Dumbledore's complete trust in a period 
> of only about two months. This is calculated from 1st September 
> 1981 (first day of school) until 31st October 1981 (Voldemort's 
> downfall). If he did gain Dumbledore's complete trust in that 
> short time the reason must have been more than just his remorse 
> over effectively sending Voldemort after the Potters.

"K":

I agree with you here. I cannot imagine Dumbledore placing such a
complete trust in a former Death Eater because of: 

(1) Snape's remorse, being sorry for his actions. 
(2) Snape loving Lily. 
(3) A life debt to James. 

There has to be something more.

Goddlefrood:

> Barty Crouch Jnr has something to say on this matter, this from 
> GoF (Bloomsbury Hardback Edition p. 410:
> 
> "Course Dumbledore trusts you," growled Moody. "He's a trusting 
> man, isn't he? Believes in second chances. But me - I say there 
> are spots that don't come off, Snape. Spots that never come off, 
> d'you know what I mean?"

"K":

Ah, one of the many clues Snape is evil.

Goddlefrood:

> If Snape was invaluable to Dumbledore, then, as I have said 
> before, surely he would have been *more* useful away from 
> Hogwarts than at it, that is after the rebirth of Voldemort. 

"K":

How much better could it be for Voldemort to have a spy around
Dumbledore and Harry?

Goddlefrood:

> He would have been able to spy more effectually, I propose, 
> by getting in more with Voldemort and his plans over the course 
> of OotP, which, other than the Prophecy issue, we are not so 
> far privy to. I can not envisage that Voldemort planned nothing 
> other than the Prophecy snatch for an entire year, he simply 
> does not come across as someone who concentrates only on one 
> evil plan at a time, at least not when he is in a corporeal 
> form.

"K":

I think Voldemort had other plans also but who is to say Snape did not
know those plans? And I doubt Voldemort would tell 'all' his plans to
'all' his Death Eaters.

Goddlefrood:

> 'Snape's face was twisted with fury as he dropped his robes 
> quickly to hide his leg'
> 
> I offer the view that this is because the hated son of an enemy 
> has seen his discomfort, but the snarl observed by Harry has 
> something to do with Snape's hatred of James rather than with 
> any other reason that I can buy do with his dislike of Harry. 
> Unless of course Severus has a particular aversion to anyone at 
> all seeing him injured, but this I find unlikely.

"K":

No, I don't believe this scene has anything to do with Snape's hatred
of James. Snape tried to get past dear Fluffy, was injured, and now
Harry is aware Snape tried to get past the three-headed dog. I can see
why Snape would be angry. Harry is really such a pain.

Goddlefrood:

> Enough though, I'll now present my theory. Severus Snape, as I
> said in an earlier post in this series was loved by someone. I
> believe that someone to be a strong influence on his actions.
snip
> Who, though could this someone be? 
snip
> Could it be Irma Pince? 

"K":

So is Irma in disguise? Is she Snape's wife? Mother? She's not the
most pleasant character in the series so my 'hope' would be she isn't
Mrs. Severus Snape or Mother Snape.

Now I would not be surprised to find out there is another person who
has an influence on Snape. For some the answer is his mother in the
form of Irma and for some it was Lily. Personally, I would like to see
a Snape love story but I'm not sure we will.

Which brings us to a JKR quote you used in your 'goodness' section.
This quote has been heavily discussed but I am going to go over it
again. The original question concerned Snape and love, a question JKR
***goes back to answer**** after the interviewer inserts his own
comments. You left out the important part.

---------------

Er - one of our connec- ... one of our internet correspondents
wondered ***if Snape is going to fall in love?****

JKR: Yeah? Who on earth would want Snape in love with them, that is a
very horrible idea. Erm ...

But you'd get an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape

JKR: It is, isn't it ... I got ... There's so much I wish I could say
to you, and I can't because it'd ruin ... I promise you ... ***whoever
asked that question,****can I just say to you that I'm - I'm slightly
stunned that you've said that - erm - and you'll find out why I'm so
stunned if you read book 7. And that's all I'm going to say.

The Connection
12 October 1999
J.K. Rowling Interview Transcript
http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-connectiontransc2.htm

---------------

"K":

JKR does describe Snape as deeply horrible and not nice. She wouldn't
want to meet him or have dinner with him. She doesn't understand why
people like Snape. Of course I can't understand why she doesn't
understand us Snape lovers.  :) But she never does say Snape is evil.
That question is obviously not one she would answer. But as for
goodness, I believe JKR did leave the door open a bit for some
goodness in Snape.

---------------

"Similarly, Sirius claims that nobody is wholly good or wholly evil,
and yet the way he acts towards Snape suggests that he cannot conceive
of any latent good qualities there. Of course, these double stands
exist in most of us; we might know how we ought to behave, but
actually doing it is a different matter!"

JKRowling Official Site
Section: F.A.Q. 
http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/faq_view.cfm?id=61

---------------

As for who the real Severus Snape truly is? I don't know. After six
books we still don't know Snape's true motivation or why Dumbledore
trusted him to the extent he did. Snape remains the most interesting
of characters.

"K"