Will the Real Severus Snape please step forward?

[Zara]

No: HPFGUIDX 167774

> Goddlefrood:
> 
> For now I only
> offer Uncle Horace to support what I say, he was highly 
> complimentary of Lily's potions ability. Nary a word relative
> to Severus, not proof at all obviously but perhaps a little 
> support for my explanation.

zgirnius:
That Sluggie does not praise Snape in the context of Harry's Potions 
classes does not seem indicative to me. Mentioning Lily seems by far 
the more effective tactic to try and 'collect' Harry, so his use of 
it does not surprise me. We have only one scene of Snape and Sluggie 
interacting, at the Christmas party. There, Slughorn seems to 
compliment Snape twice. He credits him with some responsibility for 
Harry's extraordinary Potions skills (an accomplishment Snape denies 
any responsibility for) and later, when explaining to Snape how 
phenomenal Harry's first attempt to brew Draught of Living Death was, 
seems to imply that the other outstanding attempt to which he 
naturally compares it was Snape's own.

> HBP, "The Unbreakable Vow":
> "I was just talking about Harry's exceptional potion-making! Some 
credit must go to you, of course, you taught him for five years!"

zgirnius:
I must add that this line, and Snape's rejoinder, is quite funny if 
Snape created the potions improvements himself. 

> HBP, "The Unbreakable Vow":
> "You should have seen what he gave me first lesson, Draught of 
Living Death - never had a student produce finer on a first attempt, 
I don't think even you, Severus - "

zgirnius:
Presumably Snape could not have seen Lily make this potion before the 
first time it was assigned (unless you grant me they had a 
relationship outside of class before the NEWT year, a position I do 
not myself hold). And yet Snape made a memorably fine first attempt 
at it.

It seems to me that the one time Sluggie absolutely would have *had* 
to say something if Snape were a potions genius, he does. Not that 
this proves anything (other than that Snape is good at potions, which 
we already know).

> Goddlefrood:
> 
> Hardly a fair analogy, I only stated that in general interaction
> between houses is in the classroom or at Quidditch, if I was not
> explicit on that, I now am ;)

zgirnius:
You stated :

> > Goddlefrood, previously:
> > it is unlikely that their nexus to each other existed at any 
level other than in the classroom. This would be supported by the 
fact that Severus and Lily were in different houses and from what we 
have been shown there is little interaction between houses except in
class or at Quidditch matches.

zgirnius:
I gave three examples of possible cross-house relationships, which 
involved the parties to them seeing each other during their free 
hours. There is also Hermione meeting with Victor in the library and 
the rose garden. And of course, I forgot the big one, Harry/Cho. 
Quidditch brought them to one another's attention (as I would imagine 
class brought Lily and Snape to one another's) but that relationship 
was pursued in Hogsmeade and other non-class locations. 

We also see cross-house platonic friendships, notably those of Luna 
with Ginny and Harry. Harry and Luna share no classes and Luna does 
not play Quidditch. I just don't see evidence that if attraction 
occurs across house lines, people nonetheless stay away from one 
another. You don't believe there was any attraction or friendhsip - 
fair enough. It just seems to me that if there had been, the 
different houses need not have been an issue. 

> Goddlefrood:
> Do we have any evidence for the assertion that Ted Tonks was not a 
> Slytherin. It does seem likely that he was not, I would agree, but 
> is there evidence for it?

zgirnius:
No, unless you consider the Sorting Hat's stated selection criteria 
for Slytherin evidence. Muggleborn is even further from pure blood 
than half-blood is.

> Goddlefrood:
>  It is 
> strongly implied that they would not have. It would be highly
> unlikely, IMO, if only because Lily was a Gryffindor and at a
> point we are so far unsure of began dating James. 

zgirnius:
We do know. James and Lily started dating in the seventh year. Which 
leaves sixth year wide open for Lily, the pretty, popular girl. Not 
that I think she dated Snape. But they might have had chats in the 
library or walks on the grounds. 

> OotP, "Career Advice":
> 'How come she married him?' Harry asked miserably. 'She hated him!'

> 'Nah, she didn't,' said Sirius.

> 'She started going out with him in seventh year,' said Lupin.

> Goddlefrood:
> 
> The matter in respect of Asphodel or Wormwood, is of interest, 
> particularly to botanists ;). I must, however be missing 
> something, is it that you believe Snape used the draught of
> living death to sustain someone? Or is it something else? I 
> would greatly appreciate enlightenment :)

zgirnius:
Sure. If Rowling's backstory for Snape involves him having loved 
Lily, she knew that when she wrote the lines I cited. Her choice of 
this potion and these ingredients would be symbolic of what she 
already knows about his character, and we are still guessing. For the 
purposes of embarassing Harry, it could have been any potion in the 
world with any ingredients. But she chose that one.

"Death and a Lily" and "Bitterness" over it have reduced Snape's life 
to a "living death", in short.

Could be a coincidence, I suppose. But despite my initial lack of 
enthusiasm for the idea that Snape loved Lily, I am pretty convinced 
of it after reading HBP. And it has grown on me.

> Goddlefrood:
> On this black colour wearing business, yes it is the colour 
> traditionally associated with mourning, but whay does that lend 
> support to any idea that Lily is the one being mourned? Black is
> also a colour in which certain people believe they look good.

zgirnius:
Snape does have the right coloring for black, actually. Sallow, dark 
eyes and hair, check. He seems to lack the interest in fashion to be 
wearing if for this reason, however.

My reason for thinking it is Lily is the bitterness (that he was 
responsible makes it worse - we know of no other females whose deaths 
Snape had brought about by the time of PS/SS, though naturally one 
could be produced from a closet somewhere in DH). And that Asphodel 
is a Lily.

> Goddlefrood:
> Additionally the traditional period of mourning does not typically
> extend to 15 or more years, fwiw.

zgirnius:
I suppose noone had the nerve to tell the late Queen Victoria? <g>

> Goddlefrood:
> What it really goes to is my thought that Severus, despite his 
> hatred of Sirius, would probably have a good idea that Sirius
> was not the traitor. He would not have been much of a spy if he
> were unaware of his fellow Death Eaters' identities, now would he?

zgirnius:
Ah, I see. In that case I do have something to add. Karkaroff in his 
hearing named a total of six Death Eaters, while explaining that the 
Death Eaters knew only a limited number of their fellows' identities. 
That Snape was one of them, suggests that they may have been in the 
same operational unit and thus knew each other to be Death Eaters. 
(Neither here nor there, but if Snape did know all those same guys, 
the high rate of incarceration and/or death in this particular group 
might have something to do with him). Karkaroff did not name Peter, 
though it is clear he would not know of Peter's supposed death, he 
has been kept in ignorance of the deaths of others such as Rosier.

Further, if Voldemort ever read a spy novel, he would realize that if 
he has two spies spying on the same person (in this case, Peter and 
Snape, both spying on Dumbledore), by keeping them in ignorance of 
each other, he would have a cross check on the information each 
provides to verify that neither is lying or holding back. And Peter 
was a very valuable spy - I think few knew his identity.

> Goddlefrood:
> 
> There is a small one, yes. It is also pertinent to the overheard
> conversation between DD and Snape. Our witness Hagrid. It would
> fit with that conversation being about Snape wanting out of
> whatever he was being asked to do because he had lost some respect
> for DD and his methods. 

zgirnius:
I guess I just don't see why the old wounds would be coming up in 
HBP. I could see Snape blaming Dumbledore as you suggest, but don't 
see what was bringing this to a head in HBP, unless you are 
suggesting the general stressfulness of the situation, which I would 
have to agree was generally stressful.