Will the Real Severus Snape please step forward?

[Goddlefrood]

No: HPFGUIDX 167787

In:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/167770

> Magpie:

> These things we do know. The motivation that Barty Junior
is giving to Moodyand that Snape believes is what he says--a 
leopard doesn't change its spots. As a paranoid person, of 
course Moody doesn't trust an ex-DE would ever really become 
good.

Goddlefrood:

I'll grant you the latter, Moody is paranoid, but having said 
that, at the point in the Pensieve scenes where he says this 
aside we can not know that he was as paranoid as he is in canon 
some 13 or 14 years later. He still had an intact nose for a 
start, but that may be of little significanace to his paranoia.

On Barty Jnr though I beg to differ. We do not know his thoughts 
on Severus, other than his resentment of any Death eater who 
escaped a stint in Azkaban (from someone who did in fact escape 
a full stint himself :)). He was certainly a clever mimic of 
Moody, he had most of us fooled, I'll wager, but on rereading 
and knowing what is to come a different light was cast, for me 
at least, on his comments during The Egg and The Eye. My 
extrapolation of Barty Jnr's word relative to Leopards not 
changing their spots is that it is more expressive of Barty Jnr's 
own opinion, rather than Moody's.

Of course that does not mean I entirely disagree with you :). I 
just mean that we can't really know whether Barty Jnr and Snape 
at some point back in the day had some deeper enmity.

> Magpie:

> But Dumbledore isn't reacting to anything. He's got no 
reason to think Snape has betrayed him. 

Goddlefrood:

Here's somewhere we differ. I do have a little snippet for you:

'... the door to the ramparts burst open once more and there 
stood Snape, his wand clutched in his hand as his black eyes 
swept the scene, from Dumbledore slumped against the wall, to 
the four Death Eaters, including the enraged werewolf, and 
Malfoy.'

...

'Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore and there was revulsion 
and hatred on etched in the harsh lines of his face'

Both from p. 556 - HBP, Bloomsbury Hardback Edition.

The pleading occurs between the two. The possibility, although 
perhaps slight, exists that when Snape swept the room Dumbledore 
caught his eye for just long enough to read the hatred in Severus 
at that time. The mask of Occlumency had slipped for those few 
moments on the tower due to Snape's boiling anger, which he 
contained to the extent of showing it in no more way than the 
revolted, hating look on his face. There was no time for his
trademark tirade, IOW :)

Of course, I'm well aware that this can be argued either way, 
the beauty of discussion is that this is the case and one reason 
for our shared view that Snape is an interesting and difficult to
fathom character.

I have stated in an earlier post of today (for me) some reasons 
behind DD's possible realisation that he has been betrayed. These, 
IMO, stand up to some scrutiny.

> Magpie:

> Has Snape ever had a scene with Madam Pince? 

Goddlefrood:

This gave me pause, and then I trawled the books for references. 
There is only one reference to them in close proximity (textwise,
not physically). Here it is:

'Wishing he'd been a bit quicker at thinking up some story, Harry 
left the library. He, Ron, and Hermione had already agreed they'd 
better not ask Madam Pince where they could find Flamel. They 
were sure she'd be able to tell them, but they couldn't risk Snape 
hearing what they were up to.'

p. 146 - PS, Blomsbury Paperback Edition

It is sugestive of a link, however tenuous, between Irma and 
Severus, in that the first person thought of to be reported to by 
the librarian from HRH's perspective was the man himself. A 
little ridiculous perhaps, but then there are also quite a number 
of references throughout the books to Severus being in or 
proximate to the library.

That there is no further clue does not disprove the matter. We 
have been blindsided before. I am not confident of the link 
between Irma and Severus, but I do have confidence about the 
basic theory, which is that someone other than the usual suspects 
is influencing Snape's actions. She could, as indicated, also be 
his mother or sister or even some other female relative.

Of course one intriguing possible link between Irma and Severus 
is that they have both at times in canon been compared to 
vultures :).

There is a little more, this from An Evening with Harry, Carrie 
and Garp 2nd August 2006:

"JK Rowling: I thought you were going to attack me for Madam Pince 
and I would like to apologize for you and any other librarians 
(crowd laughs) present here today and my get-out clause is always 
if they'd had a pleasant, helpful librarian, half my plots would 
be gone. 'Cause the answer invariably is in a book but Hermione 
has to go and find it. If they'd had a good librarian, that would 
have been that problem solved. So, sorry."

Extracted from:

http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2006/0802-radiocityreading2.html

Not much there, but that's about all I could find on this matter 
of a link. This quote suggests to me that her disposition is not 
dissimilar to Snape's, fwiw.

In 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/167773

> > Alla:

> > Is there no time for Dumbledore to realise that Snape had 
betrayed him though?

Goddlefrood:

Well, see above, it is fleeting, but it is there.

> Magpie:

> Luckily Snape's a superb Occlumens, which cancels that out.:-) 

Goddlefrood:

Perhaps, perhaps not, see above for my view on this matter. 
Snape only needs a fleeting moment for the mask to slip to allow 
DD, one of the acknowledged two greatest Legilimens to see his 
thoughts.

> Magpie:

> And even if he wasn't, we don't see Dumbledore have any sort of 
revelation. There's no dawning horror. Even if this were happening 
silently it would still be happening.

Goddlefrood:

When have we ever really seen Dumbledore with a less than calm
expression. Only one time I can recall when he looked slightly
perturbed in the battle with LV in the MoM Atrium. As he himself
has said "to the well organised mind, death is but the next great 
adventure."

In:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/167775

> Alla

> I know you were saying it about DD - in regards to Gavin's 
assertion, but it seems to me that step to make from Snape's 
continuous hatred of marauders to his dissapointment with DD 
is not a large one.

Goddlefrood:

Who is this Gavin of whom you speak? ;). Thank you for pointing
this out. The link between the prank and the tower is difficult
to completely exclude. There is simply too little to go on in
respect of Severus to make concrete assertions.

In:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/167775

> zgirnius:

> That Sluggie does not praise Snape in the context of Harry's 
Potions classes does not seem indicative to me.

Goddlefrood:

Let's have a closer look at the quotes you bring in and explore 
them further.

> HBP, "The Unbreakable Vow":
> "I was just talking about Harry's exceptional potion-making! 
Some credit must go to you, of course, you taught him for five 
years!"

This one is suggestive of Uncle Horace praising Snape's potions
teaching ability only, IMO, it would not lead to a further
extrapolation that Snape was one of Uncle Horace's favourite
students from his former tenure at Hogwarts.

> HBP, "The Unbreakable Vow":
> "You should have seen what he gave me first lesson, Draught 
of Living Death - never had a student produce finer on a first 
attempt, I don't think even you, Severus - "

This one does indicate that Snape was a good student, but again
it is inconclusibe of Uncle Horace regarding Severus on 
anywhere near the same level as he clearly regarded Lily. I have
nowhere said I think Snape was a poor student, in fact I have no 
doubt he was a very good student, just not as exceptional as 
others. It would not preclude my thought that Lily assisted 
Snape in class.

In addition, just to make it crystal clear, in case it wasn't
before, I do favour a friendship between Lily and Snape. What
I can not credit is anything deeper than that. If their was such
a friendship as I believe then I contend it began no earlier
than the NEWT level, which is the final two years of their time
together at Hogwarts.

I have agreed that their are relationships between house outside
of the classrooms and Quidditch games. That all of those we have
been shown are between Ravenclaws, Hufflepuffs and Gryffindors
does not exclude my view that Slytherin are often excluded out
of such things. I see little to counter this view in canon.

zgirnius:

"Death and a Lily" and "Bitterness" over it have reduced Snape's 
life to a "living death", in short.

Could be a coincidence, I suppose. But despite my initial lack 
of enthusiasm for the idea that Snape loved Lily, I am pretty 
convinced of it after reading HBP. And it has grown on me.

Goddlefrood:

Possible, but then what isn't when discussing Severus? I will
say that it is not a view I favour, while also not excluding 
the alternative offered that, yes, Lily and Snape had a 
friendship, but it never grew any more than that in either one
of them.

> > Goddlefrood earlier:

> > Additionally the traditional period of mourning does not 
typically extend to 15 or more years, fwiw.

> zgirnius:

> I suppose noone had the nerve to tell the late Queen Victoria? 
<g>

Goddlefrood:

She would NOT have been amused had anyone done so :|

-----------------------

On the question of Snape's spying it seems to me enough has been
said, round and round the hosues I will not go ;)

-----------------------

> zgirnius:

> I guess I just don't see why the old wounds would be coming up 
in HBP. I could see Snape blaming Dumbledore as you suggest, but 
don't see what was bringing this to a head in HBP, unless you are
suggesting the general stressfulness of the situation, which I 
would have to agree was generally stressful.

Goddlefrood:

The suggestion has been made by me in another post o this thread,
that does concur with the latter part of this actually. I dated 
it from the argument in the Forest that Hagrid partially 
overheard.

Are we actually in agreement on this matter? :)

In:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/167780

> Julie again:

> If it was a snap decision, I'd still expect Snape's behavior
to reflect that fact. 

Goddlefrood:

Well, see my earlier comments in this respect. His face 
certainly changed a good deal between his initial entry and the 
moment he cast the AK. He was not pleased at all, as one example, 
when he had to hand Harry and Ron over during CoS after the 
Flying Ford Anglia / Whomping Willow incident, now was he? He 
did not start flting off the handle at that time. He also 
controls his anger during the whole GoF Moody revealed as Barty 
Jnr matter. 

Why not on the tower?

> Julie:

> And why shouldn't he lose it, at least verbally, in front of a 
number of Death Eaters? If he excoriates Dumbledore while killing 
him, he'll only cement their belief in his loyalty to Voldemort.

Goddlefrood:

Not if the reason for his seething under anger is as I have 
suggested, he's hardly likely to start screaming "YOU FOOLISH 
OLD MAN, WHY DID I GIVE YOU MY ABILITY ALL THESE YEARS, ALL FOR 
NOTHING, YOU'RE AS WORTHLESS NOW AS WHEN THOSE SAINTED MARAUDERS
NEARLY KILLED ME!"

Or words to that effect? ;). Not likely to endear him to the crew
of Death Eaters present. These same Death Eaters may well have
caused more destrution within Hogwarts had Snape lost control, 
he was at least competent enough to divine that. Neither his 
interests nor the interests of the one behind him would be served 
in any way by mass killings at the school, and that would have 
been a not completely unlikely outcome had Severus not taken 
steps to remove said Death eaters immediately.

> Julie again:

> So you think when JKR said "you" directly to Lydon, and then a 
moment later said "*Whoever* asked that question..." she was also 
refering to Lydon, the person she was talking directly to? Maybe 
I need to rein in my inner Ravenclaw (or my inner Spock), but I 
can't help being stymied by the illogic! I know in real life 
people do break up sentences and insert tangential comments and 
so on when they speak. But this would be a bit beyond the norm.

Goddlefrood:

I did not impute that, I merely stated that the opinion you hold
is a valid one and one to which you are entitled. It seems to me 
that she is switching between addressing Lydon and the original 
question sender. It's just a pity that English is not more like 
Fijian where there is a clear distinction between the you being 
addressed and a you elsewhere :). My interpretation of the 
sentence is equally valid IMO.