Transitions etc. (Was Re: Will the Real Severus Snape please step forward?)

[Goddlefrood]

No: HPFGUIDX 167803

In:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/167791

> Pippin:

> I think I understand what you mean. But in terms of story
development, how could this meaning be conveyed? Harry,
the boy with no subtlety, is hardly likely to come up with
any such nuanced interpretations on his own.

Goddlefrood:

I did a little further expansion in a later post than the 
one quoted. I do accept it is a difficult theory to swallow.
As I have also said we have been blindsided before. Having
been around the HP fandom for a number of years now I can't
say I've seen many theories at all that turned out correct.
In fact there are very few, IMO, that came even close.

If they did it was more by luck than good judgement :).

The genesis of my theory was that I did not believe Snape
was DDM, nor did I believe he was LV's man. I also did not
share a view that has been expressed that if Snape were
out for himself the reason would be that he wanted to become
the next Dark Lord. He just does not read that way to me.

The original premise as I saw it when the bare bones of my
theory were in process was that as a satisfactory alternative,
to me at least, there should be someone else behind Snape, 
someone to whom he is loyal and for whom he acts in the way
we have seen.

After JKR revealed that we had met all the characters in 
play this became a little more problematic. If the theory is
close to being right then the person behind Snape has to be
someone we have met. There is some suggestive material in
canon, particularly descriptors and the anagram business
that point to Irma. That it may not be her is a concession
already made. If the theory itself is thought meritorious
then I would welcome suggestions as to who this other might
be :)

As you rightly say, Pippin, Harry is not the ww's most
reliable witness, His interpretations have proved incorrect,
even in respect of Severus, whom he was convinced was the
real villain throughout PS.

On the above query I would only say that there will be a way
of gaining further insight to the events atop the tower. One
possibility is for Harry himself to put his memory of it in
a Pensieve and have someone else who knows Severus and Albus
better than Harry himself does analyse that memory.

Or perhaps we will get to the point where Harry realises 
that Snape is in fact not hindering his quest but assisting 
it and Snape then offers his explanation. As you go on to
say, quite rightly, Harry may not believe this version, if,
however, Harry has realised what I mention above then he 
just may. As ever we have no way of knowing prior to the
release of DH, but it is always a pleasure to speculate, and
sometimes rather wildly, as I freely admit this theory of
mine does in parts :)

In:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/167794

> Magpie:

> Tragically, I already wrote out a response to this and then
stupidly lost it--you'll get the short version now--lucky!:-)

> Basically, no, imo.:-) I think the fact that you've added 
things like Dumbledore picking up Snape via Legilimency and 
catching his eye and Snape's boiling with rage is further proof 
that there are things that we *need* in the scene in order for 
it to make sense as what it's claimed to be, and they're not 
there.

<Large SNIP> - Examples of transitions

Goddlefrood:

Pity you lost the longer version, it would most probably have 
convinced me ;). The only difficulty I have with your fine 
response is that the entire scene atop the tower, at least the 
bit where Severus was present, only lasts half a page. Many of 
the other examples last a good deal longer than that :).

Negative aversions are certainly evidence, but they remain 
negative aversions until further facts can be ascertained to 
fill in the gaps. The scene atop the tower does not, IMO, 
contain enough hard facts to support a reading of a pre-arranged 
plan, as has been speculated on by many. The turning point, as 
I see it from HBP, is the argument in the forest. A heated 
exchange from Hagrid's perspective, and Hagrid has not been one 
to exaggerate too much, although he is a blabbermouth :)

> Magpie:

> And here's the biggest transitional moment of all, because
Dumbledore has just received the blow. Not quite as big as 
learning his trusted lieutenant is a traitor who's going to kill 
him, but a big blow nevertheless, because Harry learning this 
about Snape changes the whole emotional landscape Dumbledore's 
got to deal with. 

<SNIP>

> Magpie:

> Dumbledore has nothing to react off of from Snape to make him 
think of betrayal if he wasn't a moment ago. Snape has done 
exactly what he would be expected to do. 

<SNIP>

Goddlefrood:

Absolutely, it is a big transitional moment. It only lasts half 
a page so little else was thought necessary to add by JKR in that
scene. My initial reaction when reading HBP was that Snape had 
finally been revealed as evil. It is only based on certain 
persuasive material in some theories and interviews of JKR since 
HBP that I have modified that view. If Snape is DDM then I can't 
say I would be disappointed, but I would certainly felt let down 
after the enormous change of direction for his character in HBP.

The other thing to bear in mind, which I do, is that in the 
several minutes atop the tower before the arrival of the Death 
Eaters and then Snape (another Death Eater) Dumbledore is clearly 
described as fading fast. Even the usually not so observant Harry 
notices this. Also we have to remember that the pleading was 
Harry's pov, it is not a pov I share.

> Magpie:

> That's why to so many people it looks like whatever is going 
on between Snape and Dumbledore has been gone through somewhere 
else, because there's no sign the two of them are surprising each 
other at all.

<SNIP>

Goddlefrood:

Back to the forest, as I have stated. There was a beginning of a 
build up of tension back then and despite Dumbledore's persuasion 
of Snape at that time, Severus simply does not come across as 
someone who accepts defeat, whether in an argument or otherwise, 
very well. IMO of course.

In:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/167796

> Julie:

> I snipped most of your replies, because as you say, anything 
is possible when it comes to Snape. But your theory is built on 
a lot of "slight" possibilities like the one above, as you admit
yourself. The slight possibility that Dumbledore could have 
caught Snape's eye and deduced Snape's unexpected betrayal just 
as Snape momentarily dropped his Occlumency shields. Added to 
the slight possibility that Irma Pince looks much more aged than 
she really is (if she was Snape's schoolmate), added to the 
slight possibility that Snape has some relationship with her 
even though they don't have a single scene together in the books 
to foreshadow such a critical plot element...

Goddlefrood:

Of course, I agree with this assessment, but the basic concept
is actually as outlined earlier herein and I give you the 
reasons for the genesis of the theory. The tower scene is too 
short to get an adequate handle on, and btw I have yet to see a 
truly convincing Snape as Dumbledore's man theory, nor have 
I come across one that puts the opposing view that he is 
Voldemort's well.

I do believe Snape lies between those two extremes and that 
there is a great deal of merit in my theory. It does, of course, 
remain just a theory and we will be privileged to find out whom 
the real Severus Snape is in DH.

I will also put up the residual post (Snape 4) fairly soon, 
which is a ridiculous theory about Snape as LV's (I won't say 
man, as that would give too much away ;))

Goddlefrood who finds himself convinced by Carol's post on why
Snape did not recognise Wormtail and who says that between her
and Ceridwen that matter appears to be resolved :)