Nitwit? - Remus John Lupin

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 168112

wynnleaf
> I've been searching, but still can't find where any posters 
> *lately* have been saying that his wrong actions in adulthood 
> are "excused."  Perhaps you could point me to it.
<snip>

Dana:
Explaining Snape's behavior by pointing out he might have come from 
an abusive home, is still excusing his behavior in my book and saying 
it is disturbing to read him being made fun off because he was so 
deeply humiliated by the Boggart lesson while he was the cause of 
that fear in the first place is still excusing his actions. Lupin had 
every right to let Neville confront his fear even if it was Snape, 
the boggart would turn in to, it was Snape own actions that let Lupin 
pick Neville and it were his own actions that caused Neville to fear 
him above anything else. His humiliation was brought onto himself not 
by what anyone else did. 

By the way I have seen people excuse him being a former DE because he 
had such a bad childhood, that is giving the man excuses for his own 
choices too.  

> 
> wynnleaf
> First, we don't know that Lupin had "a great deal more than Snape" 
> to overcome, because we really don't know enough about either.  
> However, from JKR's comments and what we see in Lupin's actions, 
his 
> past *did* help shape his weaknesses.  His weaknesses are not the 
> same as Snape's.  He doesn't act terribly bitter, and insult his 
> students.  On the other hand, we haven't seen Snape risking his 
> student's lives in order to keep in Dumbledore's good will.  On the 
> contrary, we see him risking his life.  So shouldn't we be 
wondering 
> why Lupin couldn't get over his past rather than allow his 
> weaknesses to endanger the lives of little kids?
<snip> 

Dana:
To me there is a big difference between not being able to get over 
the past and the past still being very much part of the present. 
Lupin has no choice to still be confronted by the same problems he 
was afraid off in his young life, while Snape pretty much chooses to 
not let go of the past because he never was able to successfully pay 
them back for it. He doesn't bully his students because he has been 
bullied or because he had such a bad home life, he bullies his 
students because it makes him feel all powerful and that is sickening 
enough to me. He doesn't just insult his students, he installs fear 
in them. That is not just out of bitterness. We see him gloat about 
his actions on more then one occasion. He truly enjoys doing it. 

He endangered the lives of the students in HBP by not actively 
preventing Draco working out his task. He might have helped Kathy but 
he actually did nothing that we see on page to prevent Draco from 
trying and kill DD and yes, we know why because he can't because he 
will die himself. And many wishful thinkers might actually believe 
all his actions were out of the goodness of his heart and that he 
tried to get the DEs out as fast as he could, he did nothing to 
prevent them to enter the castle in the first place. He could have 
put the kid into detention the rest of the year; he was his head of 
house. Oh yes I forgot it was all planned of course to serve the 
greater good. 

So I'm sorry but Snape actually did put the students at risk by 
taking a vow that prevented him from actively acting out against 
Draco. And this action actually made it possible for a werewolf that 
feeds on children to roam free within the castle walls. 

I even am of the opinion he risked the lives of 6 students in OotP to 
remain his cover and to not take the situation that presented itself 
more seriously. 
He risked the lives of students throughout the books come to think of 
it, when he did not inform DD about Quirrell in book one, he risks 
the lives of the students by allowing Lockhart to take the lead in 
CoS and not debating this decision, he risked the lives of the 
students by not bringing Lupin's potion to the shack and then wanting 
to drag the werewolf up to the castle while mocking Lupin about 
forgetting to take it. He risked the lives of the students by not 
going to DD instead of running after Lupin himself. He risked the 
lives of the students in GoF by not telling DD that polyjuice potion 
herbs went missing from his office while this might have been 
critical information that could have exposed Barty Crouch Jr earlier 
on. 

So sorry I do see Snape's actions put many people at risk and he even 
claims to be responsible for the death of two and we also see that 
his previous actions of wanting to serve his master have put the 
lives of many more in danger. He might not have willingly have chosen 
who LV was going to kill but he surely knew that someone would get 
killed by bringing LV the prophecy information. He wanted to cause 
mortal peril to an innocent man because he felt his revenge was more 
important then to take a moment to listen. He even doesn't want DD to 
mess with his chance for ultimate revenge and this is a man he was 
supposedly risking his own life for. He doesn't even blinks and 
thinks twice about exposing Lupin after being disappointed. Even his 
treatment of Harry became quite worrisome after Sirius escape but no 
really the man's actions are not that bad right?   

wynnleaf
> You've just told us the bad stuff he went through, and I agree.  
But 
> are you trying to say Sirius overcame all that and became an 
> exemplary person?  What evidence do we have of his overcoming it?  
> He'd been out of Azkaban for a year when he made the comment *as an 
> adult* that Snape deserved the werewolf prank that almost took his 
> life.  He insults Snape when he's visiting in his home -- and yes 
> Snape insults Sirius, too, but in the one example we see, Sirius 
> starts it and is the first person to draw his wand.  Sure, Sirius 
is 
> willing to fight for the Order, but so is Snape.  So really, I 
don't 
> see the evidence that Sirius overcame the problems of his youth.  
He 
> continues to do some reckless things even into OOTP, some of which 
> (like going to the train station) affect his ability to be of help 
> to the Order.

Dana: 
Yes, Sirius had serious problems with the past because he had been 
reliving the worst of it for 12 years not considering his life worthy 
of anything and he is only there to serve Harry and he cares pretty 
much about nothing else. He replaced his own family with a new one 
that died the night of LV's down fall.  
He did not have a life in between the time James died and his escape 
from Azkaban so he actually is still stuck in the same loop but what 
is Snape's excuse, he has been a teacher for 14 years and no 
Voldemort to worry about.

Maybe he was right maybe Snape did deserve it because we actually do 
not know what Snape contribution was in it. And unless Sirius dragged 
him and dropped him in front of Lupin the werewolf then it was pretty 
much Snape's own responsibility. Personally I do believe Sirius when 
he says Snape was always trying to get them expelled and that it 
played a part in them even being able to play a trick on Snape and if 
he had gotten more then he could chew because of it then he actually 
brought it on to himself. Sorry you might disagree but I would not 
change my mind about someone deserving it either if he got himself 
into it. I even would not be surprised if all the marauders where in 
it and Sirius just took the fall for it single handily. 

I think wanting to help the Order what Snape concerns is still 
debatable. Snape insults Sirius from the moment he brings his so-
called reports and Snape had his hand on his wand before Sirius 
pulled out his. It is Snape that should have shown some respect, 
Sirius is not in that situation by choice, he can't proof to the MoM 
that he is innocent as long as they do not want to accept LV has 
returned. It is also Harry that Sirius reacts to and not Snape, it 
only escalates when Snape insults both Harry and James. 

> wynnleaf
> The question in this case really isn't is it understandable that 
> Neville's boggart was Snape -- it was.  Nor is it a question of 
> whether or not Snape "deserved" to be made fun of in Lupin's 
class.  
> The real question is whether Lupin was doing a responsible thing, 
as 
> a teacher in the school, to handle such a difficulty between a 
> student and another teacher in such a public way that opened the 
> other teacher to public ridicule.  I don't actually think it's any 
> teacher's place to make a judgement call as to whether a fellow 
> teacher should be put up for ridicule in front of the students.
<snip>

Dana:
Yes, but Lupin could not know Neville's Boggart would be Snape and if 
he had said well Neville can't deal with your fear now then he would 
put Neville down again in front of the whole class. It had nothing to 
do with wanting to humiliate Snape and if Snape would have been nicer 
to Neville he wouldn't have ended up being his Boggart, now would he. 
And Snape did not show Lupin any respect either by telling him how to 
run his class and calling him by his last name. 

Snape made a fool out of himself and Lupin merely wanted to stand up 
for Neville being degraded in front of the whole class and a new 
teacher. I do think Lupin made a responsible choice by not putting 
Neville down again because his fear would not be morally appropriate 
to address, what would that have told Neville? Well Neville to bad 
you have to face you fear in private because we do not want to 
humiliate Snape while he can put you down when ever he wants? The 
thing Neville fears most wasn't Lupin's choice nor his responsibility 
but addressing that fear was part of the lesson and would help 
Neville beyond that lesson as well because now, even though Snape 
bullied him even more, he would never have the same impact on the 
kid. He only had to picture Snape in his grandmother's dress to 
relieve his anxiety and Snape bullying is nothing Lupin can do about, 
it is Snape personal choice to treat his students that way.     


wynnleaf
> As I outlined in another post recently, Lupin came to POA already 
> having a hard time holding a job because of his condition and the 
> Ministry knew about it as well, so it was hardly a secret.  The 
> students and most parents probably didn't know, but obviously many 
> others must have known.  Further, Umbridge's restrictions began 
> during POA (we only hear about them in OOTP)

Dana:
I believe JKR inserted these restrictions as a direct result of the 
Sirius Black incident and Lupin's involvement and the social pressure 
of having a werewolf as a teacher. It was Snape that caused these 
restrictions by telling his house as most are against anything that 
isn't pure blood. It might have been a direct result of Draco 
complaining about it to his dad as we see him being so very social 
with Umbridge and Fudge too. 

Still it was childish of Snape to out Lupin like that just because he 
didn't get his way and it did make Lupin resign his job. What Lupin 
did had nothing to do with Snape but what Snape did had everything to 
do with Lupin.  



wynnleaf
> Actually, that's not what I tend to think of, although it's 
possible 
> he did have such an abusive home.  What we *know* is that he was 
> bullied for years by a group of four students who tended to work 
> together and had a convenient map so that they could easily target 
> him (or anyone else) unsuspectingly.  Although we see lots of 
> evidence of the Marauders getting in trouble (detention records and 
> a few comments by, I believe, McGonagall), we have no evidence that 
> Snape was out trying to attack them other than the "gave as good as 
> he got" (2, 3, or 4 against 1?) excuse that Sirius and Lupin 
> attempt.  

Dana
We also hear that he ran with a gang of Slytherins and we see most of 
them are much older then Snape and thus it is not hard to imagine 
they terrorized the school before the marauders got the chance to do 
so. We hear Umbridge tell Snape, Lucius speaks so highly of him. 
Snape is a Slytherin and one of their characteristics is being very 
cunning just because Sirius and James made no secrets of their 
pranking doesn't mean Snape did nothing, he was just sneaky about it 
or sniveled his way out of it. 

He is still slithering out of action and never taking the heat face 
on. We also see Snape's own spells being used by Lucius at the World 
Cup and he gets angry about his own spells being used against him by 
Harry just as his filthy father. I think Snape would have practiced 
his spells to see if they worked for others to copy them unless of 
course you believe someone stole his book, which I do not.

What I actually witnessed in the pensieve scene is Snape losing from 
James regardless of Sirius presents. After Snape cuts James cheek he 
had his wand in hand and Sirius does nothing but within a few flashes 
of light he is hanging up side down. Of course he would say he could 
not win from them because they were with more but I actually think he 
just couldn't win because James reflexes were better even if he faced 
him alone and this is why Lupin says Snape cursed James at every 
chance he got, probably when James had his back turned. And we 
actually see Snape lied because Wormtail and Lupin did not 
participate at all. And I believe it was always just Sirius and 
James, either together or separate. 

wynnleaf
> This is pure speculation on your part.  It could be that Snape 
> having Harry do the Marauder's era of detention files was in part 
to 
> point out to Harry the mistake of following down that path -- the 
> indescriminant hexing in the halls stuff, which Harry was beginning 
> to do in HBP.  Remember that even Dumbledore, immediately following 
> Sirius' death, had no problem with going over some of Sirius' 
> mistakes with Harry. 

Dana: 

Speculation on my part? Let's see 

pg 497/498 UKed HBP,

`It must be such a comfort to think that, though they are both gone, 
a record of their great achievements remains
'

End quote canon. 

Yes, Snape is such a great teacher, lets teach the kid some manners 
by having him reminded his great idols in life are both DEAD. 
And have him go over and over it by copying their names a few times 
while Harry doesn't want to talk about Sirius through out the book. 
And what does Harry learn, right to hate Snape even more and to use 
his spells again this time against the man himself. 

Dumbledore was wrong and I believe we will see how wrong he was in 
DH. His version of Sirius treatment of Kreacher does not fit with 
what we see of Sirius and Kreacher's interactions. Sirius did not 
treat Kreacher indifferently, we see him actively hate him and visa 
versa. It looked more like sibling rivalry then Sirius treating 
Kreacher as a slave. Harry was right Dumbledore is very illogical 
about Snape's hate for Harry being somehow different then Sirius hate 
for Kreacher. Sirius doesn't even let go of Kreacher because he 
thinks having him leave the house would kill the poor thing not just 
because he knows too much. 

wynnleaf
> Lupin's actions aren't right or wrong because of Snape's 
childhood.  
> But the fact that it was *Lupin* himself who is in part responsible 
> for that childhood *does* make a difference when we see him 
> continuing to take advantage of opportunities to ridicule Snape as 
> an adult.  
<snip>

Dana: 
You are playing the innocent victim card here while there is 
absolutely no proof Snape was innocent just because we were able to 
witness the marauders attacking Snape once. I always find it 
interesting that in many cases the Harry filter excuse is used to 
clarify someone's actions if it proofs to be negative like for 
instance Harry's hate for Snape but when Harry sees Snape reacting 
fast to James call, it is suddenly proof that Snape was bullied on a 
regular basis. I think he wasn't he just hated not being able to get 
them as he would have liked. JMHO

If Snape was really bullied on a regular basis why wasn't he more on 
the alert to see where these guys were? He's walking right after 
them, apparently not really afraid he might run into them. I think it 
is ridiculous to think he didn't notice, and if he just followed the 
people in front of him then he should have ended up with the girls 
because they were separating him from James and his friends. He 
looked were he was going otherwise he would not have been able to sit 
down just a few feet away, he would have passed them if he was so 
intend on his paper to notice his surroundings. Again JMHO.

wynnleaf
> I'm not sure what you mean by "gets away with everything."  
> Obviously he doesn't in the books.  And it's the rare reader who, 
> even if thinking Snape is loyal and has admirable qualities, thinks 
> that Snape is perfectly fine in insulting students.  Hey, even 
those 
> of us that *like* him think he can be pretty petty and cruel 
> sometimes.  Perhaps you could explain what "gets away with" 
actually 
> means.   
<snip>

Qualities of what? Being able to fool two overlords, to one let him 
live and to the other for not sending him to Azkaban? 
We see him getting away with being a DE, we see him have a generous 
time enjoying himself at the expense of his students, we see him out 
live the people he hates most and actually being responsible for the 
death of one of them and claiming to be for the other and we see him 
get away with murder because so many fan's believe he must have done 
it for the greater good. So yes, I'd say he pretty much gets away 
with anything because DD trust him. He is never blamed for anything 
he has done wrong and he has been awarded for it generously, while he 
takes away as much pleasure he possibly can from others.
Where do we see Snape take the heat? (Besides from Harry and Sirius) 
He is even excused for hating Harry and not wanting to learn the kid 
occlumency anymore. Oh of course that was Harry's fault because Snape 
was such a poor kid that couldn't get passed his past. 

JMHO

Dana