Nitwit? - Remus John Lupin

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 168123

Montavilla47:
> No, we don't see Lupin bullying children.  We see Lupin
> endangering children.  Snape has his flaws.  Lupin has his.
<snip>

Dana:
We see Snape endangering these same students by not taking Lupin's 
potion with him to the shack and even worse, wanting to drag the 
werewolf to the castle on a full moon night. If you want to blame 
Lupin then you can blame Snape for the same mistake. Snape was 
endangering the lives of the children in much the same way because he 
knew too that Lupin forgot to take his potion. It might not have been 
his responsibility for Lupin to take it but the moment he choose to 
act out on his own instead of informing DD about it, he made it his 
responsibility. 

The problem is that Snape could not go to DD because he had been 
nagging about Lupin all year, actively trying to prevent him being 
hired for the job and now he had him, he could proof he was right and 
DD was wrong. He finally could get the marauders expelled like he 
probably had set out to do the night of the prank. 

When Snape went to the shack it was not because he was so concerned 
about Harry because he didn't even know he was there until he found 
his invisibility cloak and still it is not enough to go to DD and 
inform him Lupin hasn't taken his potion and that he believes both 
Harry and Lupin are in the shack, no we see him go up there take his 
mighty time listening on the conversation instead of immediately 
acting out and that he is only concerned with getting his personal 
revenge. If Sirius and Lupin really posing a threat to these kids 
then why did Snape listen in on Lupin telling his story for about 10 
minutes? That is not the action of a man that hurried out of the 
castle to capture what he believed to be a killer out to get Harry. 
Sirius is actually doing nothing just sitting there making occasional 
comments for Lupin to hurry up. The man is petting a cat while he 
supposed to be a ragging murderous lunatic. 

Montavilla47:
> I'm not going to disagree with you, Dana.  But I would like to
> offer an alternate reading.  Snape outed Lupin after Lupin
> confessed to holding back information that was truly important--
> Sirius being able to assume the form of a dog and that there
> were several secret passages that led in and out of the castle
> that he could use.
<snip>

Dana:
Since when is it up to Snape to act out as judge, jury and 
executioner all at the same time? 
It was not up to Snape to punish Lupin for his actions because his 
actions had nothing to do with Snape.

Lupin did not owe Snape an explanation for his actions not in the 
present and not in the past in relation to the marauders becoming 
animagi. Snape did not out Lupin, out of moral obligations but out of 
revenge because he did not get his the previous night and again they 
got a way with it, hanging Snape out to dry. 

DD made an active choice to not hand over Lupin to Fudge and this 
should have been enough for Snape because DD once did the same for 
him when he was accused of being a DE and he had been a DE, while 
Lupin did NOT help Sirius even if he omitted information but we see 
Snape omitting information about individuals throughout the books. He 
knew Lucius, Bellatrix and many others had been DEs but he never 
ratted them out after the first war. (And yes Bella did get away with 
it at first until she got caught after torturing the Longbottoms). 

We see him not inform DD on various things he has information on that 
could have dramatically changed the course of events but no we have 
to condemn Lupin because he did not wanted to reveal emotionally 
loaded information about Sirius. Yes, he was wrong but he made a 
human mistake, while Snape's actions are most often deliberate and 
calculated because he wants to be the hero himself. 

And the passages I think we pretty much can relieve Lupin from 
responsibility for not telling about these because it was DD's 
responsibility to know the castle better then any student and make 
sure it is a safe place. These passages were there for a long time, 
long before Lupin attended Hogwarts and if they could find them then 
so could DD.  

 
Montavilla47:
> It only seems fair to have some compassion for Snape if we're
> going to have it for Sirius's home life.  At least Sirius had
> a brother to commiserate with (and once he met James, a very
> supportive friend and adoptive parents). Snape had to deal
> with his parents alone, as far as we can tell.
<snip>


Dana: 
Sirius brother believed in his parent's pure blood mania, he did not 
have his support and had to deal with standing up to his parents 
alone. Sirius made an active choice to befriend James and dedicating 
himself to him like a brother.  

Snape made an active choice to deal with his problematic home life on 
his own; it is not because he was unable to make friends. 

Seeing his brother go to waste because he did not act up against his 
parents and him getting killed for joining up the DEs as a result of 
their parents indoctrination might have been harder on Sirius then 
for Snape having to deal with his parents during school holidays. 

Sirius lost everything in the first war, his brother and father were 
dead already, no making amends with them even if he had wanted to and 
he then lost his second family and he was not allowed to take Harry. 
He lost his other friends when the stress of war caused confusion and 
distrust. And then we see him lose his freedom for being set up by 
one of his supposed friends. 

What did Snape lose? Actually we see him lose nothing. His parents 
might still be alive for all we know. He did not have to go through 
the heartache of losing those he loved and being disowned by his 
family for having different believes. The only thing we see him lose 
is his dignity and he makes people pay for that dearly.  

Sorry but I do not have any compassion for Snape and JKR even implies 
Snape had been loved by someone, who I believe to be his mother as 
she compares this love to LV's lack of it.  

Montavilla47:
> Again, I don't think we have to tally up score points for all
> this. I suspect that Snape had some point to the detentions he
> gave Harry, beyond a desire to see James's son suffer. I think
> it may have had something to do with the escalation of mischief
> that the Marauders did, with the escalation of mischief that
> Harry committed that year.
> 
> In the world according to Snape, the Marauders nearly killed
> him for a joke.  Then he sees Harry (who has been playing with
> Snape's old spells for fun throughout the year) nearly kill
> Draco. Perhaps Snape is hoping that Harry will make the
> connection between his recklessness and the the Prank.
<snip>


Dana
In Snape's world everybody is to blame but Snape and he has everyone 
repay their dues because he believes they owe it to him. It was Snape 
invention that Harry used, that means that he holds responsibility 
for Harry even being able to get his hands on it. If Snape had seen 
the errors of his ways then he should have burned the book while he 
had the chance. 

Snape was reckless too in the prank because according to many he was 
bullied by the marauders frequently but he still takes Sirius up on 
his advice to check out what Lupin is up to. How come Snape doesn't 
understand that there is a specific reason Lupin is hidden behind a 
murderous tree and brought there by the school nurse. Are they having 
a private picnic he wanted to join in on? No, Snape went there 
because he thought he could get the marauders out of his hair once 
and for all and therefore he was as much responsible for what 
happened that night as Sirius, or maybe even more because he made an 
active choice to go in, no one forced him to listen to Sirius. 

You can't be tricked in to doing something if you do not want to 
participate in it, unless you are gagged and then thrown in to the 
wolves den and that is not how the story was told because according 
to Lupin, Snape could not resist to try to get passed the tree after 
he had been told how too and then James came in after him to drag him 
out, not to drag him in.

Snape's claim that he could have gotten killed because of the joke is 
him washing himself of any responsibility like we see him do with 
many other things in the books. Like for instance putting the blame 
back at Harry for not believing Snape was actually going to check 
out, Sirius was okay without Snape even coming back to let him know. 
DD excuses Snape again that he could not have acted any other way but 
how was Harry supposed to know Snape actually listen to him? That is 
washing your self of responsibility for playing part in the drama of 
that night, if they only listen to me nothing would have happened 
Headmaster. Seriously I can't see why he would think I would do 
nothing at all, have I ever given him any reason to believe I 
wouldn't?

Or even bringing the prohpecy to LV, oh I am so sorry how could I 
have known which family LV was going to kill. If he had just picked 
another, then there would not have been anything to worry about. 

JKR implies that Bella and her gang were sent to the Longbottoms and 
I will not be surpriced if it turns out it was Snape sending them 
because if only LV had chosen them instead of the Potters things 
would have been so different for Snape. Just happily speculating of 
course. 

How ever you want to read Snape's character he was not an innocent 
victim just because he occasionally was hung by his feet. We see the 
DA transfigure Malfoy, Grab and Goyle into giant slugs but they where 
far from innocent victims, even if they lost out that particular 
time. Snape made his own choices and there might have been a very 
specific reason why he was so unpopular and with only Lily coming to 
his aid. Snape did not even hang out with people of his own house as 
we see in the pensieve scene and it might have been a direct result 
of him hanging out with the gang of Slytherin's and them being the 
biggest bullies in the playground when he first started Hogwarts. 

Sure it is speculation but so is yours to think Snape was just a 
helpless lone soul that could not defend him self and that Snape was 
hoping for Harry to learn something from his father's mistakes. He 
absolutely did not want Harry to learn anything, he was actively 
using Harry to take out his revenge on James, just because he no 
longer could do so with James himself. After seeing Harry had been 
bullied by his cousin, Snape should have lightened up but he didn't, 
now did he? Personally I do not see the so-called educational 
intentions Snape supposed to have had in mind for Harry, he actually 
does imply the opposite time and time again that the kid is to 
arrogant and inadequate to learn anything. 

JMHO

Dana