Danger in designating an "Other" / Bad magic

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 174116

Beatrice:

> I do however, want to ask people to consider two points.  First, 
that 
> we have a limited view of Slytherin, because we are somewhat 
limited 
> to Harry's view on that house, not because JKR has a narrow view 
of 
> the people sorted into that house.  

Magpie:
It's a work of fiction, one for which JKR chooses the perspective. 
Presumably JKR knows more about Slytherin than Harry, yes. But 
that's why she's also in control of how it comes across in the 
story, which is the only place it exists outside her head (and her 
words in interviews even seem to back this up). Slytherin's role in 
the story is pretty clear and consistent, with the redeemed 
Slytherins all proving the rule, imo, and I'm going by that. By what 
I see in the story JKR's view isn't narrow but accurate, since she's 
showing the house the way she wants it to be shown and she made it 
up. 

Beatrice:
While it is often difficult to 
> remember when we are reading, we need to remember that the author 
is 
> writing from a particular narrative perspective (which has been 
> widely discussed as third person limited omnicient - but 
> significantly tied to Harry's own thoughts), and this narrative 
> perspective does not necessarily correspond in part or at all with 
> the author's perspective.  Additionally, we now have to consider 
what 
> is Harry's perspective and what has formed that perspective. 

Magpie:
Harry's perspective is the only perspective (except for the scenes 
not in his perspective)--and while there are places where Harry's 
perspective is clearly different than the author's, that doesn't 
make it totally unreliable. Whatever is needed for us to understand 
what the author wants to say is in the book. There is no "real 
wizarding world" outside  it. To quote Sydney's great metaphor, it's 
not like JKR's filming a documentary here and she just doesn't have 
the footage to give the impression she wants. The impression Harry 
has of the Slytherins is all we have, and I see no reason to think 
it's so skewed I as a reader don't have an accurate picture of 
Slytherin. JKR could have turned around Harry's impression of 
Slytherin and shown him how he was wrong, but that's not what 
happened.

Beatrice:

 Well, 
> let's see, just a quick glance...a member of Slytherin house 
murdered 
> his parents, from his initial introduction to Hogwarts Slytherin's 
> have been bullying, across the board people connected with the 
house 
> have worked tirelessly to bring about his destruction, and perhaps 
> most importantly, Harry fears the qualities in himself that seem 
to 
> associate him with that house. 


Magpie:
How is the fact that Harry's experience of Slytherin has been almost 
all negative (and that includes a lot of Slytherins) a defense 
against the fact that Slytherin comes across negatively? They're 
supposed to come across that way, aren't they? Harry's fears that he 
might have those qualities make sense--though ultiamtely he's fine 
with having the qualities. What we might assume are Slytherin 
qualities are quite sexy on Harry. 

Beatrice:

Also, many people have pointed to the 
> fact that the battle at Hogwarts seems to be fought singularly by 
the 
> other three houses, yet we know that at some point Slughorn 
returns 
> and that Snape has been fighting all along.  Perhaps, because of 
> Harry's limited perspective and his limited knowledge of the 
members 
> of Slytherin there are others who are do return to fight, but 
simply 
> go unnoticed by Harry and thus by us, because of the limited 
> narrative. 

Magpie:
Given the set up I absolutely can't just assume they came back to 
fight. There's nothing so wrong in Harry's perspective that 
suggests, imo, that I should stick in a bunch of Slytherins to fix 
it. If they were there we'd know it and so would he. Is it so 
important that Slytherin students should have returned? Because I 
think if one feels it is important one must ask why it's not in the 
story--and Harry's perspective certainly doesn't explain it. He sees 
the Slytherins that are there. 

Beatrice:
 It is only because of the knowledge of Snape's sacrifice 
> gained at the very end of the novel, that opens Harry's eyes about 
> Slytherin house and allows for his change of heart during his 
> discussion with his son at the end of the novel.  

Magpie:
It opens his eyes to Snape being brave, like Regulus, and changes 
his heart towards Snape. The change in his heart towards Slytherin 
is pretty weak (remember, it's not like Harry's been wanting to burn 
the House down throughout canon). There's no praising of Slytherin 
at the end of the novel--understandably. I can't imagine what Harry 
would find to praise about it--which is I think why he winds up 
diplomatically reassuring his son via the signature quality of 
Gryffindor. (And why his son needs reassuring to begin with.)

Beatrice: 
> Second, I don't agree with that Slytherin is "evil" nor that evil 
is 
> the right way to label all of its members.  Okay, so Voldemort, 
> Bellatrix, et al, certainly deserve that label.  But, here is 
where 
> Harry's limited perspective comes in to play, Harry doesn't seem 
to 
> be acquainted with many Slytherins so it is inevitable that his 
> perspective is incredibly narrow.  

Magpie:
No, not inevitable, actually, even if "evil" isn't the word for 
Slytherin. Harry doesn't know that many Ravenclaws or Hufflepuffs, 
but they don't come across like Slytherin, because they aren't. On 
the contrary, we're told a lot about what to expect to Slytherins 
from Harry's perspective (which Hermione agrees with as well) and 
then they demonstrate he's right. If there's a bunch of Slytherins 
knitting sweaters for orphans, they don't appear in the story and 
therefore do not exist.

Beatrice:

Now let's consider a couple of 
> members of Slytherin (from the few we know).  Pansy Parkinson 
> specifically her call to hand Harry over to LV at the end.  Is 
this 
> an act of evil?  Or is Parkinson acting out of fear and her own 
> weakness?   We as readers find it so abhorent, because of our 
> perspective that Harry is the hero, as we know from Neville, 
Hogwarts 
> and the WW at large has been terrorized for many months and 
everyone 
> is in "mortal peril."  From Parkinson's perspective handing Harry 
> over is about self-peservation not necessarily love of LV.  And 
> wouldn't it be out of character for her to rise to Harry's aid, 
just 
> out of the blue?  

Magpie:
Well, yeah, it would be. I don't quite see what your point is here, 
though. I could see your point if the series wasn't over yet, but 
now that it is, this is how it stands. Fanfic authors have been 
giving the Slytherin perspective for years, but as you note here, we 
as readers find it abhorent and it is supposed to be. The problem 
isn't that I, as a reader, can't think of things from their pov or 
that I am angry at the Slytherins. Fanfic isn't canon, and canon 
isn't defending the Slytherin viewpoint. You say that it would be 
OOC for Pansy to get up and protect Harry (I agree as if that's the 
only possible alternative to what actually happened, but then when 
we're told the Slytherins all leave and never hear of them again 
returning, you think it's fine to assume they changed their minds 
and came back. Why would I give them these actions that they haven't 
earned?

Beatrice:
I suspect however, that Malfoy,is perhaps (although 
> it has not been widely discussed) is truly at the heart of this 
> discussion, as readers many have been hoping that Malfoy would be 
> redeemed through the novel  a lot of fan fiction ink has been 
spilled 
> on this particular subject.  This perhaps is the source of the 
real 
> dissatisfaction.  Again, I have a really hard time labeling Malfoy 
> as "evil," he just seems so weak and foolish.  This may make him 
at 
> best a good vehicle for evil, but not necessarily evil in and of 
> himself.  Malfoy isn't redeemed in the novel, because he stays 
true 
> to character, despite the terror and abuse he receives at the hand 
of 
> LV, his father and other DE's, Malfoy isn't introspective enough 
to 
> seek redemption, all he seeks is power, although as readers we see 
> how limited his power is, to assuage his powerlessness, and glory 
> (again feeble as it is) to cure his inferiority.  What is perhaps 
> tragic about him, is that he is offered mercy by Dumbledore, and 
> Harry and doesn't have the brains to grab it.

Magpie:
I find this a bit condescending--well, really a lot condescending. 
The extreme version of this argument is: "You're just mad because we 
wanted leather pants Draco," and you've followed it with your own 
personal interpretation of the character as being somebody who only 
wants power and doesn't have the brains to seek redemption. Leaving 
aside that I don't completely agree with your interpretation of 
what's in canon (but you can find yours in fanfic too), and that you 
can't claim to know the motivations of why everyone who is 
dissatisfied, this argument still doesn't say anything about the 
actual problem. 

Malfoy is, of course, part of the discussion, because he of the 
storyline he was given in HBP, a storyline that put the character 
*canonically* in the position of a change the story ultimately said 
did not happen. This was seen even by people who did not like or 
were not interested in the character to begin with. He was placed in 
a position of meaning, and how he acted was, imo, therefore a 
significant part of what the author was saying.

So Malfoy's yet another Slytherin without the brains to seek 
redemption--which is exactly the point people are making about 
Slytherin and why they find it a dissatisfying ending. Slytherin 
doesn't take its place as a house of equal value to the others, and 
that wasn't necessary for the true defeat of the things they were 
fighting (or, imo, they just chose a smaller thing to fight). Even 
if someone loved fanon Draco, they're obviously seeing the character 
as he is in the actual canon here. Finding something in canon 
unsatisfying doesn't mean that you *must* have had a specific, 
unreasonable expectation and could only be dissatisfied because you 
didn't get it. I know that sometimes individual people really do 
seem to make it clear that's what it's about, but you're 
generalizing about a lot of people here.

The argument here just really seems to be jumping around in 
sometimes contradictary ways, so that you agree that Slytherin is 
presented in this negative way, then defend it as if the author was 
trapped into presenting it that way when really she knew it was 
something else, then say it really did contain the things people 
want but they weren't written in, but if that doesn't work maybe 
there's something wrong with you. 

To me it seems a lot more simple: JKR wrote the story a certain way, 
she had a certain view of Slytherin house that she presented 
perfectly well. But what she wanted to say just wasn't satisfying 
for some readers. 

-m