Danger in designating an "Other" / Bad magic

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 174190

Montavilla47 wrote:
> The problem is not what JKR says, but what comes through in the
books.  The message regarding Slytherins in DH is that they 
> 
> 1) don't do anything to resist oppression when it threatens their
fellows (there are NO Slytherins who join the D.A. forces during the
school year); 

Carol responds:
I think we need to consider why that might be the case. Could it be
because they finally have a Slytherin Headmaster? If we can judge from
the reaction in HBP when Snape gets the DADA post (and by Draco before
he started seeing Snape as his DE rival in HBP), most of the
Slytherins seem to have liked Snape when he was teaching, even if most
of the students from other Houses hated him. Now their Head of House
is Headmaster. Those who are Death Eaters' children think he's a loyal
DE; the others might well believe the Daily Prophet's version of
events, that Harry Potter killed Dumbledore. Either way, they would
see no reason to join a group that they would view as anti-Snape and
anti-Slytherin, and it probably doesn't help that the Gryffindors, who
are in charge of the opposition hold the view that all Slytherins are
Death Eaters. It would never occur to them to invite a slytherin to
join. In fact, I don't think we see any new recruits to the D.A.
Voldemort's coup sows seeds of distrust that sprout even when he's off
searching for the Elder Wand. If a kid wasn't in the DA. in the first
place, they're unlikely to trust him or her now. Of course, they're
not going to invite junior DE Draco who tried to kill Dumbledore (and
nearly killed Ron and Katie with his carelessness) or his friends who
were members of Umbridge's Inquisitorial Squad. As for the Slytherins
in Harry's year who weren't IQ members, Blaise Zabini is a pure-blood
supremacist and Theo Nott's father is or was a Death Eater. Ginny,
Neville, and Luna fought Death Eaters in the MoM. It's unlikely that
they'll reach out to anyone who might be associated with DEs. At this
point, they trust only known friends like Hagrid (good thing Snape let
him stay at the school!) and their fellow DA members, especially the
Gryffindors to whom they can talk safely in their common room without
being overheard.

I think we need to be realistic rather than idealistic. The time to
make friends with the Slytherins is not when the DEs appear to be in
charge of the school, especially given the view held by the Gryffindor
students, at least, that Snape murdered Dumbledore. (I found it
ironic, even darkly humorous, that the first person to question the
Snape-as-murderer view was Rita Skeeter, but, of course, her own
theory was even farther from the truth.)

Since we don't see any individual Slytherins other than Draco and his
cronies except Pansy, who has no idea what being a DE is really like
and still seems to be under her HBP delusion that it's something
glorious, we can only guess what's going through their minds. Crabbe
and Goyle, having DE fathers and the intelligence of slugs, are open
to the influence of the Carrows, but we don't see any other
Slytherins, even Pansy, throwing around Dark magic. There's no
incentive for even non-DE Slytherins like Blaise Zabini, or loners
like Theo Nott (whose father must have died in Azkaban or St. Mungo's
as we don't hear anything about him) to side against him.
(Portrait!Phineas perhaps illustrates their attitude. He's proud to
serve a Slytherin headmaster in place of doddering, eccentric old
Dumbledore. I can't tell exactly where Phineas's loyalties lie in the
middle of the book other than toward Snape, but I think he must have
known from sixteen years of overhearing their conversations that Snape
was Dumbledore's man and he can't help but overhear him talking with
Portrait!Dumbledore. My reading is that he's protecting Snape's cover
and is SSM (Severus snape's Man) through and through. And note that he
drops the "Mudblood" epithet for Hermione when Snape reprimands him.)

Montavilla47: 
> 2) will actively aid Evil by handing over the champion of Good
(Pansy Parkinson yelling for Harry to be turned over to Voldemort,
Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle coming back to capture Harry in the RoR);

Carol responds:

You're talking about four of about seventy students (assuming a normal
student body of 280 and no Muggleborn Slytherins). Draco in DH is a
thorough mess; his parents seem to be still loyal to Voldemort and
eager to get back into is good graces, at least until what we must
assume was a crueler than usual torture session after Harry Potter
escaped from them. His Aunt Bellatrix is still fanatically loyal.
Draco is evidently appalled by the cruelty but afraid to stand up to
it. His mother's only virtue at this point is her love for him;
slippery OFH!Lucius has no virtues at all. Voldemort has taken his
wand, which is now destroyed, humiliated him, made Draco torture
people and watch his old Muggle studies teacher die, and all Lucius
can think about is getting back into LV's good graces. How is Draco,
whose courage has always been rather lacking, supposed to stand up to
them and oppose their treatment of Harry and Hermione? The best he can
do is refuse to definitively identify them. Spineless as he is, Draco
is not "[Voldemort's] most cowardly servant" (DH Am. ed. 470). That
dubious honor goes to Gryffindor Wormtail.

Poor Goyle, who has always followed Draco's lead, has no more brains
than a dinner plate. (Rather touchingly and quite surprisingly, to me,
at least, Draco cares enough about Goyle to save him from the fire, or
have Harry save him. Crabbe, little more intelligent than Goyle, is
unfortunately a lost cause, reveals an unsuspected talent for casting
Dark spells, no doubt having found a kindred spirit in Amycus Carrow,
but we don't see any of the other Slytherins trying to use the Killing
Curse or FeindFyre (sp.) Pansy Parkinson, who delighted in Rita
Skeeter's previous slanders of Harry, perhaps believing them, may for
all we know believe them now. Much better for Dumbledore's murderer to
be the over-rated and arrogant Harry Potter than Professor Snape, who
perhaps does not seem sinister at all to the Slytherins (and, of
course, is trying to protect the students eithout blowing his cover).
Or she may believe that Snape did the school a favor by getting of
"the old Mudblood lover," to quote Draco's earlier view. Not having
any first-hand experience of a Death Eater's life, how is Pansy
supposed to change her views? Maybe Draco, like Regulus before him, is
protecting her by letting her continue to spout the Ministry's party
line. Best not to know the truth when Voldemort can return at any
second and torture or kill them all.)

Whatever their motives, these four are not representative of the other
Slytherins, whose only crime is not to side with people who hate and
distrust them. Better to obey McGonagall as she shivvies them out. If
they stay, she'll suspect them of supporting Voldemort.

Montevilla:
> 
> 3) will flee rather than fight when push comes to shove (the ENTIRE
Slytherin House leaving the castle just before the fight.

Carol:
Flee? They obey McGonagall's order to leave. After Pansy's idiotic 
suggestion that someone grab Harry, first the Gryffindors and then the
Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws stand up and point their wands at Pansy,
something like 200 against one, because she's stupid enough to think
that giving Harry to Voldemort is the right thing to do. McGonagall
restores order in the only way possible. "You will leave the Hall
first with Mr. Filch," she says to Pansy. "If the rest of your House
could follow" (DH Am. ed. 610). There's no indication that a single
Slytherin intended to act on Pansy's suggestion (though Draco and
company attempt it later), but any Slytherin defying McGonagall's
order would automatically be assumed to be trying to follow Pansy's
suggestion or sneak out to fight for LV. What choice they have besides
obeying McGonagall escapes me.

McGonagall follows with a similar order to the Ravenclaws.
"Ravenclaws, follow on!" And underage students from any House (which
would be anyone in fifth year or below and even some sixth years,
regardless of House. "A number of older Ravenclaws [and even more
Hufflepuffs] remained seated while their fellows filed out, but no one
is going to suspect *them* of doing so to support Voldemort. Nor do we
know exactly how many older students are involved; the Muggleborns
aren't at school, so at a guess ten students from Ravenclaw and twenty
from Hufflepuff? The numbers could be even smaller. The majority seem
to have followed the Ravenclaws' example. Of course, a larger number
of Gryffindors (most of them underage and prevented from staying
behind--Colin Creevey disobeys and is killed for his bravery) support
the invisible Harry, but they are members of his own House. Many know
him personally; others cheered for him as their Quidditch or TWT
champion. *Of course* more Gryffindors than anyone else choose to join
the battle. It has as much to do with protecting or defending one of
their own as with courage or principle. How many slytherins could be
expected to stand up for Harry Potter given his known antipathy to
their House (later modified, thanks to Snape)?

If you can cite canon for any Slytherin actually fleeing as opposed to
following Filch as ordered, please do so. 

Montevilla:
  The Malfoys actually get points for running around like chickens
instead of fighting for either side.)

Carol:
I'm sorry. I don't understand what you're referring to. If you mean
that JKR is giving them "points," I think she's just illustrating that
even Death Eaters and Slytherins are capable of love. I think Narcissa
gets more "points" than Lucius since she actually lies to the Dark
Lord, and I would certainly give both of them more "points" than the
murderous Bellatrix. I think we're meant to feel the same mixture of
pity and contempt for the adult Malfoys (who have put their son's life
ahead of their pure-blood agenda and support for a maniacal would-be
dictator from whose cruelty they have suffered) and for the confused
and conflicted Draco that Harry felt after the tower scene in HBP: "He
despised Malfoy for his infatuation with the Dark Arts [never mind
that we've seen no such infatuation], but now the tiniest drop of pity
mingled with his dislike. Where, Harry wondered, was Malfoy now and
what was Voldemort making him do under threat of killing him and his
parents?" (HBP Am. ed. 640). DH gives us part of the answer and an
unusually astute glimpse on Harry's part into Draco's psychology.)

Are we meant to admire the Malfoys? Of course not. Are we supposed to
feel some compassion for them, or at least for Draco and Narcissa, a
drop of pity mingled with our dislike or contempt? I think we are.
(Lucius is still Lucius, placing self-interest above everything else,
but even he cared more about Draco than reinstating himself in the
Dark Lord's best interest. Or maybe he knew this wasn't a fight that
the Dark Lord was going to win. I need to reread that section of the
book.) But we are certainly meant to contrast Narcissa with her
sadistic and murderous and perhaps psychotic sister Bellatrix, whose
passing no reader is likely to mourn. 

Montevilla: 
> The only good Slytherins we get are Slughorn and Snape.  <snip>
Moreover, both Slughorn and Snape belong to older generations.  

Carol:
As does "brave Regulus, champion of house-elves," whose contribution
this thread seems to be neglecting. Sure, he's dead. Sure, he's of
Snape's generation. But their generation is the same as that of
Harry's parents, just twenty years or so older than the Trio and
exactly the right age to serve as role model for a young person.
Slughorn, of course, is some fifty or sixty years older than Snape,
having taught *Tom Riddle* Potions. (And Phineas Nigellus, if we can
count a portrait, is from a still older and much more conservative
generation. Think of an ante-bellum Southern colonel embodied in a
talking portrait in the 1990s. Yes, I know it's an American image, but
he would hold the view of Black people common to Southern gentlemen of
his era, which I think is anagolous to Phineas' view of Muggleborns.)
So we have multiple generations of Slytherins represented, with only
the students excluded for what seem to me perfectly sensible reasons.
(Ask McGonagall why she shepherded them away.)

But, IMO, it doesn't matter that Snape and Regulus, who doesn't seem
to be getting his due here because his contribution to the fall of
Voldemort occurred seventeen years before, are members of a different
generation. Snape was influential; he was the Slytherins' teacher and
Head of House for much of his adult life and their headmaster for most
of his last year. They knew him personally, perhaps much better than
Harry knew him. Of course it matters that snape was a hero. Who better
to influence the next generation of Slytherins, especially once he has
a portrait in the headmaster's office. And if I were JKR, I'd make
sure that he had an Order of Merlin First Class prominently displayed
in the Trophy Room (replacing Tom Riddle's unearned one.) A role model
to follow is their first step. And Slughorn, the other "good
Slytherin," is their current Head of House, and we can hope that he'll
use his charisma or however you wish to define that trait to guide
them in the right direction. (I doubt he'll openly express surprise at
a Muggleborn's talents in future.)

The new generation has these two people to look up to, two more than
they had before. Regulus Black could be added to the pantheon of
Slytherin heroes as an example of Slytherin courage and compassion
toward house-elves. Compulsory Muggle Studies taught by someone with a
philosophy comparable to Charity Burbage's would be another step in
the right direction.

Montevilla:
The students, overall, represent the future of the Wizarding World. 
The underlying message is that none of the Slytherins are worthy to
share in triumph of the good.

Carol:
Canon, please? I've cited some, along with my interpretation (as of
this stage in my rereading). Most of what I've seen so far from the
"Slytherin as Other" side is unsupported generalizations. I'm not
saying that you're wrong and I'm right, but can we have some solid
evidence and analysis, please? I thought that was what this list is
supposed to be about.
> 
Carol:
> When Phineas Nigellus shouted, "Slytherin did its part" (or words to
that effect), what part did you think Slytherin House played?

Carol:
Aside from the fact that without Snape, HRH would still be suffering
from the evils of the locket Horcrux and Harry would not have received
the message to let Voldemort kill him so that the scar Horcrux would
be destroyed, and Slughorn's contribution, and Regulus as inspiration
for the house-elves and the metamorphosis of their new leader
Kreacher, and Phineas Nigellus (blood prejudice or not) as Snape's spy
and go-between, passing on the key information that the kids were in
the Forest of Dean? Seriously, Snape alone played such an important
part that the statement stands as valid in my view.

Of course, Phineas is a bit carried away--the of-age Slytherin
students were effectively blocked from participation just like the
younger students from all the Houses--but I can see his point.
Slytherin *did* play its part, and that part turned out to be crucial.
It needs to be acknowledged.
> 
Montevilla:
> It wouldn't have taken much to show Slytherin "playing a part."  For
example, we could have  had a Slytherin Flag in the RoR.

Carol:
Can someone point me to the page where this description occurs? I
could be mistaken as I haven't yet memorized the book <g>, but, IIRC,
the RoR is replicating the DA headquarters, and no Slytherins were
admitted to the DA, so of course it would contain no Slytherin flag.
It may or may not be relevant, but the target of the DA was High
Inquisitor Umbridge and the not-yet overthrown Ministry, not Voldemort
(except for HRH and their close friends). And at that time, Draco,
Pansy, and the Slytherin Quidditch team were going around wearing
Inquisitorial Squad badges. I doubt they knew that their Head of House
was quietly undermining Umbridge, nor do I think they knew just how
closely affiliated she was with the pure-blood agenda. (Do we see
signs of that in OoP? I always thought her pink cardigans and Alice
bands hinted that she was a Muggle-born.)

montevilla:
>   We could have seen 1 students remaining when Slytherin left. (How
much would we have loved Theodore Nott if he had stayed at that
table?)  We could have seen some of the Slytherin students returning 
with Slughorn for the final battle (with their families). <snip>

Carol:
Okay, you've got me there. I wanted to see Theo Nott play a role in
the book. But the Slytherin students can't fight in the battle. The
of-age Slytherins are being kept away from the battle along with the
younger students and those from Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff who chose to
sit out the battle. (Maybe the Ravenclaws and Hufflepuffs who joined
did so because, like Hannah Abbott, whose mother was murdered in HBP,
they had lost family members to the Death Eaters? At a guess,
Hufflepuff students have a lot more Muggle and Muggle-born relatives
than the Slytherins do!) As for Theo, at least he didn't become a
Death Eater like his father as Draco did or fight to avenge his arrest
(and death?). I'd say there's hope for his redemption or rather his
future since he doesn't appear to have committed any crimes.

Montavilla47: 
> I think JKR didn't put any of that in because she wanted to give
maximum impact to Snape and Narcissa's actions.  But even so, she
could have simply mentioned the "returning" Slytherin students when
everyone is sitting in the Great Hall.  Instead, we get the lonely
Malfoys huddling together, wondering if any one is going to kill them
for simply existing.

Carol:
I think you're right about JKR's focus on key characters or characters
who illustrate a key theme (as in even Death Eaters can put love of
family above Voldemort). Love is the key. (Oh, dear. Now the theme
from "Secret of NIMH" is running through my head. FILK, CMC, or is the
song too soppy?)

But to generalize from Slytherins sitting out the battle to Slytherin
= evil seems a big jump to me. Sure, the students from other Houses
turn on Pansy Parkinson, but unlike her, they see Harry (rightly) as
the WW's only hope. We can't expect Pansy, who has always seen Harry
as someone to laugh at, along with his "Mudblood" and "blood traitor"
friends, to suddenly change her view of Harry. And we didn't see the
rest of the Slytherin table cheering her or melodramatically crying
"Seize him!"

This scene occurs *130 pages* before Harry publicly vindicates Snape,
 who has been killed three hours before according to LV. Until Harry
makes that speech, the students from the other three Houses thought
their erstwhile headmaster was a murderer and a Death Eater and that
his House was the Death Eater's House. Harry's speech is undoubtedly a
wake-up call for students, staff members, and ordinary citizens who
three hours before thought there was no such thing as a good Slytherin.

Carol, who wants to get beyond unsupported generalizations and examine
the text itself