Malum in prohibendum vs. Malum in se, was Re: Harry using Crucio.

[littleleahstill]

No: HPFGUIDX 174361

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Alan Wilson" 
<bawilson at ...> wrote:
>
> Some things are wrong because they are illegal; other things are 
> illegal because they are wrong.
> 
> Running a red light comes definitely into the first 
class. "Shooting 
> a man in Reno just to see him die," (to paraphrase the old song) 
is 
> definitely in the second. There are a great many things in between.
> 
> You will note that JKR shows her 'good' characters doing Crucio 
and 
> Imperio, but never explicitly Avada Kevadra. Hence, SHE apparently 
> thinks that the first two are MIP, while the last is MIS. (Now, 
some 
> people don't see a difference, but this is JKR's sandbox. She gets 
> to make the rules.)
> 
> Language is also a clue. The first two curses are in Latin, while 
the 
> last is in Hebrew or Aramaic. Latin is the language of Law; Hebrew 
> and Aramaic are the languages of the Bible. Man's law vs. God's.
> 
> Bruce Alan Wilson
>

Sorry, I'm disagreeing with you two posts in a row.  

Firstly, most things that are illegal are illegal because they are 
wrong. (In the UK there are bye-laws for the administrative stuff) 
Running a red light is not some trivial thing which the goverment 
has declared to be illegal because it might snag up traffic. Running 
a red light runs the risk of killing a driver coming the other way 
or a pedestrian crossing the road.  I see plenty of people running 
red lights (no implication here that you do this btw) becuase 
they've decided that this is a 'trivial' law, that it's not morally 
wrong, this doesn't apply to me etc.  If these curses are 
Unforgiveable, that's what they are, you don't get to pick and 
choose.  I see no suggestion in the texts that this label is wrong 
because it was applied by a corrupt ministry.  One of the people who 
could authoratively have put that view forward was Sirius- he did 
the opposite when he condemned Crouch Senior's legalisation of the 
UCs for Aurors.

Secondly, you draw an interesting distinction between the use of 
Latin and Aramaic. You might be right, but if I'm reading what has 
set itself up to be a moral story, I like to have its moral 
framework made explicit in the text not have to go away and try and 
impose it myself.  And  Harry was pretty upset when he used that 
very Latin curse Sectumsempra on Draco. I'd didn't hear him 
saying, "Phew, at least it wasn't Aramaic".

Thirdly, the text has always, always presented the UCs as wrong.  If 
they're suddenly going to be ok, I want to hear about that.  CJ has 
mentioned his ten year old son's reaction.  My 19 year old has 
literally grown up with and loved Harry Potter, reading him from the 
age of 9 onwards.  She's just now reading DH.  Last night she gave a 
sudden exclamation in the middle of reading.  I asked what was 
wrong, expecting her to have got to Dobby's death or 
something. "Harry's used Imperius" she said indignantly. She's no 
fool, and she has had no problem accepting FlawedHarry trashing DD's 
office, ranting in OOTP etc etc.  This was different. These young 
people know they have been presented with a certain world view of 
moral behaviour and that suddenly the goalposts have changed.

Leah