How Unforgivable is Unforgivable

[Bart Lidofsky]

No: HPFGUIDX 174392

Alla:
>Who said that you should mean them in the first place?  One DE and 
>another DE, no?
>
>Who said that they were telling the truth. Especially Bella???

Bart:
Semi-OT Introduction: I changed the topic. FINALLY, the list has calmed down from the DH rush. At this point, with no speculation about new novels possible, I foresee this list moving more in the direction of analysis of the novels. Certainly, they are flawed, and we will have to choose a balance between Sherlock Holmes style analysis, (where fans assume that everything in the canon is true, even when it's self-contradictory, and consider it a point of honor to be the first to explain an apparent self-contradiction) and assuming that everything we don't like is an error on JKR's part (and we all know that there are enough of those!). And there's a third path; we can use the Harry Potter novels as stepping off points to consider things that, possibly, JKR never considered herself. JKR certainly includes a rather flexible morality in the Harry Potter novels; at some point in the near future, I'll give a summary of my thesis of applying fuzzy logic to morality systems (for those who are not aware, fuzzy logic is a mathematical model for examining complex logical problems, and has a rapidly growing number of real-world applications), but we're only beginning to scratch the surface, now.

In any case, it is true that, in the WW, the Unforgivable Curses is a human rather than natural label, and therefore fallible. However, there is something they all have in common: the change the caster in a way that is considered to be societally undesirable. I'm interpreting what Bella said (and what others have implied) that, in order to cast the spell, there must be no doubt in your mind that you want that result). Let's look at them one by one:

1) We'll start with the The Killing Curse. Removing the "chrome", and what you come down to is truly wanting someone to be dead, and having them die. With this spell, there must be absolutely no empathy whatsoever with the victim (which is why it comes so easily for Morty). DD says that murder tears the soul. Even justified killing makes its mark; it's SOP in police departments for police who have killed in the line of duty to go through a period of therapy. Soldiers who actually see up close the people whom they have killed are often disabled for a period of time; even those who don't, who go on too many missions, can be adversely effected (I had a medium-distant cousin who, during WWII, went on about twice the so-called maximum number of bombing missions; he had to be institutionalized for the rest of his life). When you shoot someone with a gun, you make an instantaneous action that cannot be taken back. When you cast the AK spell, you are following through; completely removing yourself from humanity. Even if done in a kill or be killed situation, it makes a permanent mark. Once you have done it once, for whatever reason, you have shown yourself to be capable of doing it again. Severus Snape manages to bordeline this one (but note, in his protests in the Pensieve scene from DH, he knows what it can do to him) because DD is dying anyway, and this is giving DD the choice in HOW to die. In other words, Snape wants DD to die BECAUSE he has empathy for DD; he's killing out of love, not hate, and that makes all the difference (note that jealousy is NOT love).

2) Next, the Cruciatus Curse. In some ways, this is worse (for the caster) than the Killing Curse. Once again, one must really WANT the subject to feel the pain. However (from appearances), there is no break of empathy required here; a certain amount of enjoyment in inflicting the pain, perhaps to the point where you feel the pain, filtered, yourself. So-called "righteous anger" won't do it, because that doesn't require the infliction of pain; that just requires that the target stops their behavior. What is normally required for the CC to work is HATE, plain and simple, although a personality where one enjoys pain can make it work, too (note that Morty is not as free in casting it than Trixie; not having empathy in the first place, AK comes much more naturally to him). That Harry found himself capable of casting it is one of the reasons that I find it hard to believe that he became a full-time regular auror; like DD, I would think that he would want to remove himself from situations that activate his weakness. Until JKR says otherwise, the two can be reconciled by (to give the example I'm backing) Harry not actually doing field work, but limiting himself to instruction, consulting, and administration. Just like Snape was able to do the AK with relatively little damage, I can BARELY see cases where the CC can be used; for example, to shock a patient out of a comatose state. In other words, like DD needed to die, if the target of the CC really NEEDED the pain, then I could see the caster not needing to hate (but would still be damaged by the empathic backlash). 

3) Finally, the Imperius Curse. This is a tough one, because, quite frankly, I would bet that if we took a poll, offering hypothetically the power to kill, cause pain, or control, which would people choose, that the IC would win by a major landslide. But that's fantasy. IC in reality is date rape drugs. There was an episode of BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER, where the "Trio" (3 magic nerds) develop a mind control device, and use it on an attractive young woman. When the effect wears off, she calls it for what it is, and the reactions of the members of the trio show them for what they really are, because for the first time, they see their own evil. What's worse is that there are some real-world drugs which are precariously close to the IC in effect right now. I've made jokes about what Draco did to Rosmerta in between chapters, but I could easily see the reality vs. the fantasy limiting his actions. Because to IC someone is to take away their individuality; their humanity, and turn them into an object. Once again, empathy goes out the window. You may notice that Draco's growing distaste for being one of the DE's started with his Imperiusing Rosmerta. Noted occultist (which means that JKR is probably unfamiliar with this) H. P. Blavatsky wrote on hypnosis that the hypnotist is, to a certain extent, taking on the karma of his/her subject (she also noted that sometimes it can be used to ease the subject into handling their own karma). You are imposing your will onto another person, a person who is not doing it voluntarily. Note that Harry is unable to keep it up for long, and he is striving for a specific highly important goal. Yet, because it's an Unforgivable Curse, certain potentialities are not examined. For one thing, and I'm not sure if JKR had the background to know this, it is almost certainly highly addictive. A similar effect was used in the WILDCARDS novels, where, when the subjects weren't directly controlled, they remained slavishly devoted to their master, because they had become addicted to the intense pleasure they felt while being directly controlled. Those here who are knowledgeable on how addictions work probably figured this out long ago. On the other hand, judiciously used, the IC might have medical applications. Consider Neville's parents, temporarily released from their terrible memories. It may be that the reason why they can't be cured is that the best possible cure is forbidden.

Which brings us back to the idea of Unforgivable Curses in the first place. In the United States (and, I'm pretty sure, elsewhere), there has been, over the last decade or so, a kind of policy called "Zero Tolerance". It was based on a theory that, if exceptions are made to a rule, sooner or later, everything becomes an exception. With no exceptions, the rules are enforced. This, of course, is the logical fallacy of the slippery slope. And, in practice, "Zero Tolerance" becomes equivalent to "The enforcers of these rules are incredible idiots." You have a child who, for pointing a finger at someone else and saying "bang! bang!" is given the same level of punishment as if he had shot an actual gun. You have a girl being treated like a heroin pusher for giving a fellow student a cough drop. You have a teenage boy thrown in jail for giving his girlfriend lifesaving medication when she had a near-fatal asthma attack (he had the same condition, and used the same prescription and they both knew it; she had forgotten hers, and it was generally agreed that she would have died if it weren't for his intervention). While the Ministry of Magic might be necessary in the WW, what we had been presented with through the HP novels has been a bunch of incompetents, with a few competent people continually being pushed down. Zero Tolerance policies don't create any better an impression on the competence of the Ministry; perhaps in the post Voldemort era, things are made better. 

Bart