[HPforGrownups] Re: Jo's OWN Words/Harry using Crucio/I am about to Rant/Danger Designating the

[Kemper]

No: HPFGUIDX 174399

> Magpie:
> I think bad groups actually have historically been described as
> cunning. ...snip...
> I think the word has a far more dodgy history
> than something like loyalty or courage. You've dismissed the
> Puritans as aribiters of Virtue, but I don't think you can just
> throw out what seems like much of the history of western thought on
> the topic, particularly when Harry himself liked to think of
> Gryffindor as chivalrous. I only mentioned Puritans because they had
> a habit of naming their children after what were already considered
> Christian virtues, so the names make up a pretty good list. Yes the
> Puritans considered all virtues by how they gloried God--but that
> doesn't completely disconnect us from them historically. There was a
> time when most Western thought did that, I would think. Nowadays we
> might have a different view, but I think the history still does
> carry some weight, especially since JKR isn't turning that history
> on its head here.

Kemper now:
She may not be turning Western thought on its head, but she does
challenge.  If Western thought is based in Judao-Christian beliefs,
then what of the euthanasia presented in HBP?

I can see where aspects of the non-Slytherin houses can relate to
Christian ideals.  But it is the Slytherin with the low, base Human
value of cunning who acts with compassion on the tower by saving
Dumbledore from his suffering.


> Magpie:
> Snape is praised for being brave by Harry saying he was brave--and
> by JKR also saying that he was brave. His love for Lily was what
> inspired him to be so. I don't see Harry at all more impressed by
> Snape's subtle planning than his bravery (the last thing he says
> about Snape was that he was brave). JKR also included Snape and
> Dumbledore talking about bravery and Snape not being a coward.

Kemper now:
Harry tells his son of Snape's bravery.  He does not tell Voldemort or
the other rapt listeners in the Great Hall, the ones who will tell
their children and grandchildren of their firsthand account of
Voldemort's fall.  JKR said that Snape was 'immensely brave' and while
he may have inspired by love, he was successful because of cunning...
which Harry touches upon in the Great Hall when Voldemort attempts to
deny Harry's assertions of Snape's feelings toward Lily:

Am DH 740
  "He desired her, that was all," sneered Voldemort, "but when she had
gone, he agreed that there were other women, and of purer blood,
worthier of him --"
  "Of course he told you that," said Harry, "but he was Dumbledore's
spy from the moment you threatened her, and he's been working against
you ever since! Dumbledore was already dying when Snape finished him!"

Harry lists three deceptions of Snape:
Of course he told you that,
He was Dumbledore's spy,
Dumbledore was already dying.

Harry does not list anything brave.  There's implied bravery in the
act of being a spy against Voldemort, but again, nothing is directly
said about it.  What Harry praises is Snape's love (again, no House
can claim) and his cunning.

Based on the series as a whole, it seems apparent that JKR admires
bravery first, with cunning, loyalty, and intellect (I'm not sure if I
see much wisdom in the series... I'll have to think about that) tied
for forth.


> > > Magpie:
> > > Yes, I think it's Harry's perception, the reader's perception and
> > > Dumbledore's perception. The Slytherin perception is not
> > > presented as equally valid.

> > Kemper earlier:
> > Because it's not a Slytherin story. It's a Gryffindor's.

> Magpie:
> Yes. So I don't understand what changes because this is a Gryffindor
> story. The Gryffindor story is the only story. I don't think JKR
> just picked that randomly. Those are the values the story is putting
> across.

Kemper now:
JKR said that she values courage above the other values in the other
houses way before HBP.  Wisdom, intelligence, loyalty, diligence,
ambition and cunning all take a back seat.  I feel that I'm missing
something in your arguement or disappointment, and I want to
understand.


> > > Magpie:
> > > Luna is valued for her own bravery and is associated with her
> > > friends, the Gryffindors.
> >
> > Kemper now:
> > She is valued for her bravery by Gryffindors who value bravery and
> > who's perception we see most in the books. The first book could've
> > been called SuperGryffindor and the Philospher's Stone. Just like
> > none of the books could be called EveryHouse Potter and the Deathly
> > Hallows.
>
> Magpie:
> Well, yeah. If the pov of the books is to value bravery, that's the
> values the author is writing about. That shows in the story. It's
> not EveryHouse and the Deathly Hallows. It's Gryffindor House and
> Gryffindor Values. Because that's what JKR wanted to write.

Kemper now:
I feel like we are argueing the same thing.


> > > Magpie:
> > > I think it would be in [Luna's] character to admire Snape for his
> > > courage, sure. But I don't think that changes things one way or
> > > the other.
> >
> > Kemper now:
> > If we are assuming off canon as I did up thread, then Luna would
> > admire Snape's intellect and appreciate his cunning (as the two are
> > linked) over his courage.
>
> Magpie:
> I don't understand what "assuming off canon" means exactly. The fact
> that you can imagine that Luna might value Snape's cunning has no
> bearing on the story one way or the other.

Kemper now:
I'm sorry.  I meant assuming based off canon.
I'm not saying Luna would at all value Snape's cunning.  I'm saying
she would value his intellect (sure the two are closely related)
because we see that she values it in Hermione, wondering why she
wasn't sorted into Ravenclaw.

Again, I'm lost.  What do you think is the bearing of the story?  I
thought I understood where you were coming from, but it is apparent
that I don't.  But I want to.

Kemper