DD as manipulator? A long response.

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 174484

Mari wrote:
>
> This topic seems to be causing a great deal of angst on the list. 
Since I share Carol's revulsion to the idea of DD as a cold hearted
manipulator,  I'd like to offer my reading of the situation in 
response to eggplant's and lupinlore's posts on DD as a Godfather type
figure who led Snape, Harry or both 'like a pig to the slaughter' for
the sake of some kind of abstract 'greater good'.

Carol responds:
Thanks, Mari. I've come around myself to the conclusion that, while DD
was certainly working behind the scenes, he didn't mean for Snape to
die and always had hope for Harry, who nevertheless had to face
Voldemort believing that he was going to die for the sake of those he
left behind, duplicating Lily's sacrifice on a larger scale. (See mey
previous post.) The unreliable narrator and such devices as Rita
Skeeter's book and the Penseive scene that shows DD apparently
engineering Harry's death and even Voldemort'r reference to Harry as
"Dumbledore's puppet" are reversed by "King's Cross" just as the
misdirection about Snape is reversed by "The Prince's Tale." I still
don't entirely understand DD's original plan, which sadly backfired on
Snape, but it also backfired, as Harry says, on Voldemort (742).

Mari: 
> For me the key to reading the meaning of DD's actions is contained
in events in the previous books, as much as DH itself.
> 
> Let's begin with Chamber of Secrets. This is arguably the first 
> possible point in JKR's narrative timeline where we can assume that 
> DD at least suspected that Riddle had made horcruxes. <snip>  The
discovery of the diary and its destruction is a major piece of the
puzzle about what happened when the Potters were killed, and why Harry
survived, and the beginning of DD putting the various pieces together
in his mind. <snip>

Carol responds:
I think that Dumbledore knew or guessed that LV was making Horcruxes
long before CoS. In HBP, we find that he's been collecting memories
from the people (counting Hokey as a person) that Tom Riddle framed
for his murders. He knows about his magpie-like tendency to collect
trophies and his attachment to the school. He expresses horror at the
idea of Horcruxes and removes the books from the shelves, apparently
too late. He sees the changes in Tom Riddle's appearance, which can
only be the result of some very Dark magic. He know about Riddle's
aversion to death. In the Pensieve memory in DH, he tells Snape after
Godric's Hollow that he thinks Voldemort will return. CoS confirms his
theory that Voldemort made more than one Horcrux. He knows about the
stolen cup and locket and suspects that they may be Horcruxes. He also
knows about Gaunt's Peverell ring. Surely, Riddle would have made
those proofs of his ancestry or links with Hogwarts, all probably
powerful magical objects in themselves, into Horcruxes. By OoP, he
suspects that Nagini may be a Horcrux as well ("in essence divided").
The only question that remains for DD is how many Horcruxes Riddle
made, which is why he needs Slughorn's memory.

Mari: 
> Thus, in book six, DD knows, or possibly guesses, the following:
> 
> 1)Though Harry shares part of Voldemort's soul, Voldemort ALSO has a
part of Harry's, albeit in a different way, through the blood 
protection. 
> 
> 2) Harry has to be willing to die for the piece of Voldemort's soul
that is lodged inside him to be destroyed.
> 
> 3) Because Voldemort and Harry share the same blood, Voldemort, when
he attempts to kill Harry, is also killing a part of himself.
> 
> 4) In order for the protective function of the blood sacrifice to
operate, Harry must be willing to die for the sake of others, just as
his mother was willing to die for his sake. 
> 
> 5)In order for this to play out as it should, Harry has to know that
he must be willing to die for the sake of defeating Voldemort, and
also that he must allow Voldemort to do it without fighting back.
Unfortunately, this being the case, Harry CANNOT have the whole truth
about the blood protection before he has completed his task. <snip>

Carol:
In short, he knows that Harry has to duplicate Lily's sacrifice,
choosing to die for the love of the WW, to kill the soul bit. He
cannot fight back. He must think he is going to die. But, thanks to
the shared drop of blood, he is almost certain that Harry won't die.
The Horcruxes will be destroyed and Voldemort will be mortal. (Just
when or how DD figured out the soul bit and Lily's sacrifice is not
made clear. We're back to the missing twenty-four hours. Harry was
alive, Lily was dead, Voldie's soul was blown from his body. The
Horcruxes explained Voldie, but how did DD know about Lily's
sacrifice? Love is ancient magic, but it had never happened exactly
that way before.)

At any rate, once DD knows that he is dying, that Draco is trying to
kill him, that LV expects Snape to kill him, he comes up with a plan,
a rather desperate and flawed plan, to have Snape kill him to destroy
the power of the wand. Only Snape has to have reasons that will work
for him, that have nothing to do with puppetmaster Dumbledore. He
needs Snape to kill him, so he presents it as euthanasia, an act of
mercy to save him from dying at the teeth of Fenrir Greyback and
saving Draco's life and soul (Draco's soul would have been split
through murder; Snape seems to accept that his would not be split
through an act of mercy.) The UV simply adds to the reasons why Snape
*must* kill DD. DD needs him to protect the students and help Harry
and to get the message to him that Harry must die.

So it seems to me that DD *appears* to be ruthless and is without
question manipulative, but he is not heartless or unloving. He cares
for both Harry and Snape. He can't let Harry know about the shared
drop of blood or the willing sacrifice will not work. Nor can he tell
him about the Elder Wand, which is an even riskier plan. And because
Harry can't know, neither can Snape.

I think that, if DD's plan had worked, LV would have found the wand in
DD's grave a useless stick, entirely stripped of his powers. He would
have known that, somehow, DD had tricked him. And there was always the
chance that Harry would get there first. But from the moment Draco
disarmed DD to the moment Harry dropped the photo of Gellert
Grindelwald, the plan went wrong. 

Mari: 
> As for Snape being a 'pig to the slaughter' I personally don't see
this at all. Yes, things didn't go to plan, as DD admits in the Kings
Cross chapter, but what was the plan in the first place? Snape didn't
have to DIE in order [for LV] to become Master of the Elder Wand, it
was VOLDEMORT who thought so. 

Carol:
Snape wasn't supposed to become master of the wand at all. It was
supposed to lose its powers, to become worthless. And apparently, it
wasn't supposed to be left for Voldie to find in DD's grave. Snape was
supposed to have it, a fact that he could conceal through Occlumency
without knowing that it was the Elder Wand, only that DD didn't want
LV to have it. But Snape's having to kill an already disarmed DD in
front of four DEs and two boys (I'm sure he knew that Harry was there)
messed up that part of the plan. 

But, clearly, DD needed Snape. He was relying on him. Snape was not
supposed to die.

Mari:
For me a big part of the impact of Snape's death scene lies in
precisely the fact that he did NOT die as a part of some grand pre 
arranged plan. Voldemort, being who he was, struck Snape down without
a shred of mercy, compassion or remorse, for no purpose but his own
ends. DD's sorrow for Snape's death, like his compassion for Snape at
the moment of his own death, and his compassion for Harry, which is
what makes it so difficult for DD to do what he must (i.e withhold the
whole truth from Harry, and some of the whole truth from Snape) for me
read as very genuine. <snip>

Carol:
Exactly. And LV's murder of Snape backfires on him, enabling Harry to
feel compassion for Snape rather than a desire for vengeance, making
possible the self-sacrifice that he learns he must make from Snape's
memory, from Snape's last, desperate defiance of LV's will.

Carol, who wants to explore the Deathly Hallows from a different angle
in relations to the themes in HP and the revelations about Dumbledore
but doesn't think that discussion belongs in this post