Harry using Crucio -- Code of the Playground

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 174573

---  "pattiemgsybb" <mac_tire at ...> wrote:
>
>   eggplant:
> > A fictional character has no duty to take the moral
> > high ground, his only duty is to be interesting. 
> 
> patricia:
> JKR intends that we should see Harry as a particular
> kind of hero; while flawed, he is not written as a 
> dark hero.  As such he cannot lightly employ the most
> evil ... of measures, even against an enemy. ...
> 
> 
> >eggplant: 
> >I think it is entirely appropriate to be angry at 
> >someone who killed and tortured your friends and is 
> >trying to kill you; and it is entirely appropriate 
> >to use every resource you have to defeat that
> >person. 
> 
> patricia:
> Torture in HP is performed for the sake of *sadistic
> satisfaction.* That's true when Bellatrix does it, 
> and it's true when Harry does it. ..., the use of 
> this curse is not necessary to *defeat* Carrow. 
> 
> 
>   eggplant:
> > Of course it's more realistic! If a writer insist 
> >that her characters behave emotionally in ways no 
> >flesh and blood person ever would it wrenches a 
> >reader out of an alternate reality ...
> 
> patricia:
> Many flesh and blood people would never agree that
> torturing ANYONE is ethically acceptable, even in 
> wartime. Certainly there can be great satisfaction 
> in such vengeance against those who have wronged
> us. ...
>
> Nietzsche said, "He who fights monsters should be 
> careful lest he thereby becomes a monster. And if 
> thou gaze long into the abyss, the abyss will also 
> gaze into thee." ...

bboyminn:

Patricia, in concept and idealistically, I think you
are right. But, much to my own amazement, I find that
I must once again invoke "The Code of the Playground".
Like it or not, from a realistic perspective, "The
Code of the Playground" guides our lives whether we 
are on the school playground or on the playground of 
life.

In idealistic life, we have social and legal rules 
that guide our lives. But in reality, our peers
expect us to solve our own problems. In real-life,
there is very much a 'gunslinger' mentality that
guides us. Fortunately for society, while gunslinger
mentality guides us, it doesn't totally rule us.

If you are a kid being bullied on the playground,
outsiders will tell you to go to a teacher or the
principal, or if severe enough, to the police. But
the reality is, you are more likely to get into
trouble by doing any of those things, than you are
by dealing with it yourself.

If you are bullied, the undercurrent of society
expects you to defend yourself. If someone punches
you or harasses you, you are expected to punch them
back because that is what 'real men' do.  

I think the Gunslinger Code of the Playground is one
of the greatest sources of dysfunction in our society.
So, don't get the idea that I am presenting it as the
ideal solution to problems. 

Further, Harry being a flawed hero, makes mistakes
along the way. He gambles his life and the protection
of his parent's death for a bag full of tricks, and
when it is presented to him in that way, he is rightly
ashamed. But, then the chips are down, when it really
really really counts, Harry always does the right 
thing. I think I can easily forgive the small errors
when they are offset by the tremendous courage and
virtue of making the right decision at the right
time when IT REALLY REALLY COUNTS. 

That is the test of all our lives. We will make
mistakes along the way. We will get it wrong, but
do we stand up when it counts? Do we get it right
when it really really matters? 

I don't think it really really matters that Harry
used the Cruciatus against Carrow, because at more
crucial and trying times, Harry does what is right
and does so in the most noble and heroic way. The
good far outweighs the bad. 

Further, people reading Harry Potter and searching 
for moral and spiritual lessons will see that you
can make mistakes in life; you don't have to be a
saint. But you must learn from your mistakes, and
you must strive to be and do good. Despite all his
mistakes, Harry does far more good, and set a far 
more heroic and noble example than can be imagined. 

I think it is in his minor flaws and mistakes, and
yet his striving to do the right thing when it count,
that we see ourselves and our own heroic potential. 
I think that is why the books are popular, because
Harry isn't some idealized hero, a bastion of moral
perfection. He does wrong, he makes mistakes, he
does things we might even classify as terrible, but
he always, deep down, is striving to do what is
right, and succeeds when it counts.

While in general, I will concede that the Cruciatus
Curse is "performed for the sake of *sadistic
satisfaction.*" But in this specific case that is 
not what I see happening. Harry is not doing this
for the joy of torture; he is doing it in part as
a means of vengeance and to 'teach Carrow a lesson'.
Carrow is the most vile of people, who tortures 
and kills without hesitation or consideration. Harry
wants him to feel the pain he has cause, and he wants
to punish him for his disrespect of Professor 
McGonagall.

But note that Harry does not sustain the curse. He 
casts it, then once Carrow has felt a dose of his 
own medicine and is disable (ie: no longer a threat),
Harry releases him. The whole think lasts a few 
seconds. I hardly consider that 'sadistic'. 

Was Harry wrong? Yes, but as the Gunslinger's code
and the Code of the Playground dictate, Harry metered
out his own justice. 

I think in reality, many people fail to realize to
what extent 'The Code of the Playground' dominates
the lives of boys and men across the entire span
of their lives.

I can forgive Harry his metering out of a little
Street Justice because his noble, heroic, and selfless
acts far far out way his indiscretions. And sometime,
when the 'system' is stacked against you, street 
justice is the only justice there is. 

So says I.

Steve/bboyminn