Unforgivables - from a different angle // Power of Love

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 174581

> In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/174538

> > Mike previously:
> > Why do I have to accept the Death Eater explanation of how to use
> > these three spells as the definitive word and therefore assign 
> > them a moral component, when we *know* that intent is a major 
> > component of these spells?

> Magpie previously:
> I accept it because canon gives me no reason not to accept it and
> plenty of reasons to accept it. Barty and Bellatrix both love these
> spells and it's not OOC for them to want to brag about them and 
> teach them.  <snip>
>
> I consider Bellatrix and Barty perfectly credible
> witnesses for this information, there's no scenes
> where somebody disproves it, iirc Harry himself
> verifies it once he's done a Crucio successfully.
> So why would it be wrong?

> houyhnhnm (in message 174559):

> Well, there is the scene Harry witnesses through the Voldemort 
> connection of Rowle being crucio'd by Draco. (Scholastic, p.174)

> Draco doesn't seem to be enjoying it very much. His face is 
> described as white and terrified, petrified and gaunt. His 
> motivation seems to come from the fear of having the same thing 
> done to him if he doesn't comply.

> Magpie now:
> I mean, I personally not only get the impression that Draco 
> is reluctant and Harry is happy to do their Crucios, but that 
> Ollivander is portrayed as someone being given painful electric 
> shocks that should make us all wince while Carrow's getting the 
> equivalent of a punch in the face, all due to the people 
> involved and the context.
<snip>
> The implications seem to be that the author has little trouble 
> with the actual act of hurting someone to the extent Crucio hurts 
> them, but sees differences in when it's being used and why and 
> against whom.

Mike now:
As Captain Jack Sparrow might say, 'We have an accord, then.' That's 
all I've been trying to say. It's not the curse it's the caster. LV 
and his DEs use Crucio for torture, Harry used it, as you say, to 
punch Carrow in the face. 

I have no disillusios, Crucio is a nasty piece of work and can easily 
be used as LV and his pals like to use it. So when Harry used it in 
the Ravenclaw tower, I got it, Harry wanted to cause Carrow pain and 
a lot of it. But I also got that Harry can and does resist the 
temptation that apparently most DEs cannot, to hold the spell, to go 
from a punch in the face into the torture territory.


> In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/174559

> houyhnhnm:
> Before DH came out there was a discussion about whether 
> or not Snape could cast a Patronus (answered by DH, of 
> course).  I liked Mike's suggestion that a happy memory 
> might be necessary for beginners learning to cast a 
> Patronus, but not for someone who was proficient.  I 
> was not so taken with the idea of Love being the force 
> behind them, but someone else suggested something like 
> muscle memory.

> Magpie:
> In the end I wind up with a similar idea about them [UCs] as you 
> do, that like the Patronus there are times when how you do it is 
> important and times when it isn't. 

Mike:
Thanks for reminding me houyhnhnm. But I see I never explained myself 
very well regarding the power of Love. I was never very good at the 
esoteric. That, combined with JKR's reluctance to explain the 
mechanics of magic, meant my attempt faired worse for wear. Ah well, 
once more into the breech.

My take is that a witch/wizard draws her/his magic from an internal 
source. That this source informs how their spells are manifested. 
Hogwarts teaches kids the words, wand movements and other minutia 
needed to cast a spell. That's where and when muscle memory takes 
place. 

After this initial learning, it falls to the wizards inate power to 
determine the effectiveness and intent of his spells. Harry has the 
power of Love in spades to draw from. And Dumbledore has informed us 
that the power of Love is the most powerful fount to draw from. 

But power is not the only thing ones inate ability informs. If love 
is your predominate source of magical ability, your spells will be 
affected by the goodness of your source. So Harry could never truly 
torture someone with a Crucio because his base power cannot sustain 
the hate needed to torture. *That's* what we were shown by Harry's 
Crucio against Bella in OotP. And after all the death and destruction 
Harry has witnessed in the past two years, he was able to cast a more 
effective Crucio against Carrow. But it was still no more than 
Magpie's "punch in the face". It caused some pain, but mostly flung 
him through the air and knocked him out.

BTW, that's what I meant when I said that the power of Love allowed 
Harry to cast that most powerful Patronus in PoA.

Side note to Carol: You are right again. Snape did learn about "the 
pig to slaughter" in HBP's timeframe. I should know better by now 
than to question you on knowledge of canon. :)

Also, to both Carol and Magpie re Snape's "no unforgivables for you", 
I thought that Dumbledore was telling Snape that his euthanasia 
killing would not split Snape's soul. Did I read that wrong?

Mike