Unforgivables - from a different angle

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 174667

career advisor wrote:
>
> What I don't see anyone mentioning in this debate is the state of
the DA when Harry arrives. The curse in the Ravenclaw common room is
poetic justice. It gives the female Carrow (whose name I can't spell)
a taste of her own medicine. <snip>

Carol responds:
Minor correction. "The female Carrow" (Alecto) taught Muggle Studies,
emphasizing the supposed inferiority of Muggles to Wizards. She is not
Crucio'd; she's Stunned by Luna (casting her first-ever Stunning Spell
outside the RoR). It's Amycus Carrow, the Dark Arts teacher, whom
Harry Crucios--giving him, as you say, a taste of his own medicine. No
doubt JKR shares your view that it's poetic justice. Other posters
need not agree. As Lee has pointed out, "Crucio!" means "I torture,"
and Harry knows from experience exactly what it feels like. That he
would echo the words of one of the Death Eaters who Crucio'd the
Longbottoms into insanity, "You have to mean them," is disturbing to
me. Bellatrix Lestrange, who kills her own niece for marrying a
werewolf, as a role model or teacher for Harry is disturbing to me and
to many readers. You are, of course, free to share what appears to be
JKR's own view. I find it a terrible message to send to child readers,
myself.

career advisor:
JKR implied that the Carrows tortured ten year olds (in a childrens book).

Carol:
Well, eleven- or twelve-year-olds, depending on the month when they
were born. But, yes, one first year was put in chains. It seems that
most of the resistance was by older students, however, specifically
those who had been in the DA. (I am not justifying the Carrows'
sadism, nor the teaching of Unforgiveable Curses to susceptible
students like Crabbe and Goyle, but I think their punishments were
focused on a select group of rebels. And as I don't believe in an eye
for an eye, I see it as wrong for Harry to stoop to their level.)
>    
career advisor:
>    Terry Boot seems to have been the most recent banished, since he
wa.s at that nights dinner (though maybe not all DA members are
banished, although we know for sure that Neville, Seamus, Lavender,
and Michael are, and at least one Hufflepuff because of the draperies).

Carol:
Ernie Macmillan. Interesting that he's the only Hufflepuff, in
contrast to at least five Ravenclaws (Terry Boot, Michael Corner,
Padma Patil, Anthony Goldstein, and Luna). (See p. 578 of the
Scholastic edition.) And Cho, who is out of school, shows up later.
Speaking of Hufflepuffs, I'm sure that Hannah Abbott, whose mother was
murdered in HBP, shows up somewhere, possibly in the Battle of
Hogwarts. Can someone refresh my memory?)
>   
career advisor: 
>   5. Luna had been kidnapped in front of the DA and for a time until
she got the message to Neville they must have thought her dead. And
don't tell me Bellatrix didn't torture Luna a bit while she was at the
Malfoys, which was about a month, to do so would be out of character.
<snip> 

Carol:
And how does Luna resist the Carrows? She *Stuns* Alecto! Harry, in
contrast, Crucios Amycus. (I don't think he even realizes, at least
consciously, that it was Amycus who Crucio'd him in HBP. He thought at
the time that it was Snape, and he hasn't yet seen Snape's memories.)
Bellatrix or a Malfoy torturing Luna would not be a reason or
justification for her torturing a Carrow, even if an eye for an eye
were acceptable, and I don't think it is. (It's an odd philosophy for
a Christian author. Not that I would expect Harry and co. to go to the
other extreme of turning the other cheek, but what about a happy
medium as exemplified by Luna?) And speaking of out of character, Luna
torturing anyone would be completely unbelievable.
    
>   6.  It must have been in Harry's mind, despite what Ted Tonks had
said, that Ginny must have been punished in the same way as the
others, for stealing Gryffindors sword, that she must have been
subjected to the cruciatus at some point.

Carol:
I don't think so. Harry fears that she was Crucio'd *until* he hears
that Ginny and her friends were punished not by the Carrows but by
Snape, whose "terrible" detention was to send them to help Hagrid in
the Forbidden Forest. That's Harry's first clue, IIRC, that perhaps
Snape isn't what Harry thinks he is. Instead, he thinks that Snape
doesn't know how mild the punishment is. (Personally, I think that
Snape was giving the three kids a chance to plot resistance with
Hagrid, but that's just my reading.)

career advisor:    
>   7. And lets not talk about what happened to the muggle borns such
as the Creeveys, and Dean and Justin and what did and would have
happened to Hermione. If nothing else they would have been running for
thier life for the last nine months.     

Carol:
Which has nothing to do with the Carrows since the Muggle-borns are
not allowed to attend Hogwarts.

career advisor:    
>   McGonagall and the other teachers are portrayed as heroes, working
the best they can to prevent this. Even Snape...seems to be working to
protect them (how the hell did he convince Voldemort to keep on so
many of DD allies as teachers?) And the she-carrow has the nerve to
spit on McGonagall. What do you think her first curse would have been?
<snip>

Carol:
It's Amycus who spits on McGonagall. Alecto (the "she-Carrow") has
alreacy been stunned by Luna. As for Snape keeping the usual teaching
staff, I think that Voldemort is trusting his highly intelligent and
capable right-hand man to keep them under his thumb (rather than
deliberately allowing them to thwart the Carrows as they thwarted
Umbridge). Besides, even before school starts, Voldemort is rather
preoccupied with wands and wandmakers. (Sidenote: If Grindelwald is
156, how old must Gregorovitch be?)

Carol, who would have corrected the canon mistakes offlist except that
they affect the validity of the argument