[HPforGrownups] Re: Harry using Crucio (was: Code of the Playground) And Other Stuff, Too

[Christine Maupin]

No: HPFGUIDX 174677

Wow, that's quite a subject line...

I (Christy) wrote:
 >Based on Harry's experiences with Imperius and I think Rosemerda's (I 
 >don't have my copy of HBP with me, so I admittedly can't be sure of 
 >that), and based on the fact that some wizards claimed they were under 
 >Imperious during Voldemort's first rise to power, there seems to be a 
 >certain awareness of being under Imperious -- at least after the fact 
 (and in the case of someone who can resist it, like Harry, awareness 
 >during the fact). Snape couldn't very well have Dung remembering that 
 >he talked to Snape and got the idea of using decoys from him. 
 >So, in this case, the Confundus Charm was more appropriate than the 
 >Imperius Curse whether or not Snape might have wanted to use and 
 >regardless of being an "Unforgiveable.
To which va32h responded:
 >I don't seen any canon that the Imperiused are aware of being under the 
 >spell.
 
>However, the Imperiused do have a telltale "look" about them, the 
 >blankness in their eyes. Mad Eye would certainly be able to spot 
 >that "look" in Mundungus and wouldn't listen to a word he says. 
 
I have to disagree with you -- I mean you are contradicting something I wrote. :-)

I think does canon supports my assertion that at least some people under Imperio have an awareness either during or after the fact.  A friend has my copies of GOF, OOTP, and HBP so I'm doing this from memory and fully accept the possibility that I could be very wrong.  That said...

Is there an example of someone who has an awareness of being subjected to the Imperious Curse while it is being cast?

Yes, Harry.  If my recollection is correct, when Harry is placed under Imperio in GOF by the fake Moody in class and then again by Voldemort in the graveyard, he feels a sense of peace that makes him want to do what the person placing the curse wants him to do.  However, a little voice inside his head is telling him 'you don't really want to do that' and it is that voice he listens to.  He obviously has an awareness that the curse is trying to affect him.  So, at the very least, someone who has the capability to resist the curse has some degree of awareness of it being placed on him or her.

Do we have any reason not to believe that others under the curse feel the same sensations Harry does (i.e., a sense of actually wanting to surrender to the will of another)?  None that I remember...

Is there an example of someone who can't resist the curse becoming aware of having been under it once the curse was lifted?

Without my copy of HBP, I don't know the answer to this question.

On the Astronomy Tower at the end of HBP we learn that Draco has used the Imperius Curse on Rosmerta, making her his accomplice in his efforts to kill Dumbledore.  I thought there was mention of regret on Rosmerta's part after Dumbledore's death, but I could be wrong about that.  (Regret implies awareness -- however, I will concede that unless the book is exact, awareness in Rosmerta's case might have come from others telling her what happened and not from actual awareness of her own actions.)

In my original post I also cited Lucius Malfoy as an example of someone being aware of being under the curse, which you also took exception to.  Yes, Malfoy is a liar and knows how to use his galleons to keep himself out of trouble -- and yes he lied about being under Imperio.  Nevertheless, the fact that he successfully claimed to have been under the Imperious Curse during Voldemort's first rise to power implies to me that awareness of being under the curse is a valid concept, whether while under it or once it is lifted.  There's a difference between saying "I was under the Imperious Curse and did those awful things against my will" and saying "I didn't do those awful things."  (Now, you definitely could ding me for assuming that Malfoy claimed to be under the Imperious Curse; canon tells us only that he "came back saying he'd never meant any of it." COS, p. 29 US paperback)

Also, weren't the students in Harry's class aware that the fake Moody was successfully making them do things they wouldn't otherwise do?

As for as recognizing someone under the curse, I don't recall a tale tell look about them or blankness in their eye.  I just checked the passages in DH where Harry and Minerva used Imperio (p. 529 - 535 & p. 594- 595 US) and such signs are not mentioned (and if there were tell tale signs, witnesses in Gringotts would have noticed).  I don't have my copy of HBP, and I don't remember descriptions of Rosmerta, but I do remember that Dumbledore and Harry met her both as they left for the cave and when they returned.  If there are tell tale signs I think Dumbledore would have noticed them.

Now while under the Confundus Charm during his meeting with Snape, Mundungus's  "face look[ed] curiously blank." (p. 688 US)  I assume that the blank look lasted only as long as it took Snape to plant the idea of using decoys -- because once planted, he believes the idea and accepts it as his own.

Christy, who apologizes to Rosmerta for spelling her name wrong in my first post
       
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