Harry, Voldemort & the Horcrux at Godric's Hollow

[esmith222002]

No: HPFGUIDX 174900

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ...> 
wrote:
>
> 
> > Brothergib:
> > I think you could argue the case either way. Yes he did use a 
peasant 
> > and a tramp to make a couple of Horcruxes. However, he also 
> > specifically hunted down his father to make one of his Horcruxes, 
and 
> > also used Hepzibah for another.
> 
> Carol responds:
> Actually, he didn't. He was hunting for the Gaunts to find out more
> about his history of the Heir of Slytherin. Morfin Gaunt let slip 
that
> Tom looked "mighty like that Muggle" and Tom, who did not set out to
> murder anyone, learns about his mother running off with the locket 
to
> marry the man who lived on the hill. He also learns about the 
Peverell
> ring. So he Stuns Morfin, steals the ring, and sets out to commit a
> previously unplanned murder, for revenge. But the ring is not yet a
> Horcrux; we see it on his finger when he talks to Slughorn, 
presumably
> immediately after he returns to school for his sixth year. He wants 
to
> know whether a wizard can make more than one Horcrux (he's already
> made the diary) and is already thinking in terms of six Horcruxes 
and
> a seven-piece soul. But he neither creates the Horcrux on the spot 
nor
> performs the murder specifically to create the Horcrux. It seems,
> though, that even though he's murdered three more people (his
> grandparents thrown in because they're there, in the way, or just to
> punish and destroy the whole Riddle family and wipe out his "filthy"
> Muggle heritage), he's apparently reserving that soul piece (don't 
ask
> me how he can distinguish one from another) to use for the ring
> Horcrux. And he kills Hepzibah as much to get the cup and the locket
> as to have a soul bit for the Horcrux.
> 
> Clearly, DD was wrong about Tom's reserving important murders for 
the
> Horcruxes (Bertha Jorkins? An Albanian peasant?).

Brothergib again:
Are we absolutely sure that Riddle had made one Horcrux when he 
talked to Slughorn. When I read that chapter, it seems to me that 
Riddle is learning how to make a Horcrux. He does not possess the 
knowledge as yet, but he does possess the ring. I will admit to my 
mistake, that LV did not hunt down his father specifically to create 
a Horcrux. However, on finding out how to create a Horcrux, LV had 
already split his soul with the murder of his father and possessed 
the Peverell ring. It seems logical to me that this would have been 
his first Horcrux. And it is significant, because the ring and his 
father are strongly linked to his ancestry. The diary makes no sense 
as a first Horcrux – as DD says; 

`The careless way in which Voldemort regarded this Horcrux seemed 
most ominous to me. It suggested that he must have made – or been 
planning to make – more Horcruxes, so that the loss of his first 
would not be so detrimental' p468 HBP, UK ed

We know that LV is a prefect both during his chat with Slughorn and 
when he opens the COS. IMO, the ring came first (it is a far more 
obvious first attempt!), the diary second. Myrtle is a significant 
death, because she is a Muggleborn, and the first fatality at the 
hands of LV's basilisk. 
The next two Horcruxes are the cup and locket. Hepzibah is a direct 
descendant of Hufflepuff, and therefore has a very significant link 
to the cup. So far, IMO, DD's comment is proving correct;

`He seems to have reserved the process of making Horcruxes for 
particularly significant deaths.' P473 HBP, UK edition.

I agree that a muggle tramp and an Albanian peasant are not 
particularly significant deaths, but this is the period in his life, 
where Tom Riddle disappears without a trace. There are no particular 
links to Slytherin or Ravenclaw that could be used, and neither is LV 
actively engaging his enemies at this point. Therefore he may have 
decided that it was more important to create the Horcruxes, but not 
draw any further attention to himself. Therefore, I don't think the 
canon necessarily proves that DD was wrong to assume that LV intended 
to use significant deaths to make Horcruxes.

> 
> Brothergib previously:
> 
>  I think the creation of the Nagini horcrux was a sign that LV was
> panicking. He had convinced himself that a 7 piece soul was most
> magically powerful, but had attempted to kill Harry while it was 
still
> only in six pieces. As soon as he was able to use a wand after that
> night, he created his final Horcrux from the one thing he had to 
hand.
> 
> Carol:
> Panicking? Can you cite any supporting evidence for this view? He 
has
> five Horcruxes already, and we see from his smug attitude in DH that
> he thinks they're all perfectly safe. And his dear Nagini has helped
> to restore him and keep him alive. In his view, she would deserve 
the
> honor, not to mention that she makes a fearsome Horcrux, as shown in
> the Bathilda chapter (and comes in handy in OoP as well). He rewards
> her by feeding her his victims. I don't think he's panicking so much
> as resigning himself to the impossibility of ever getting his hands 
on
> the Sword of Gryffindor.
> 
Brothergib again:
`But you seem so much stronger, my Lord –`
`Liar', breathed the second voice. `I am no stronger, and a few days 
alone would be enough to rob me of the little health I have regained 
under your clumsy care. Silence!'
P14 GOF, UK edition

This particular piece of canon, actually comes chronologically after 
the creation of the Nagini horcrux. He was actually weaker at the 
time he created the horcrux. IMO, this is not the best time to be 
creating a horcrux, which is clearly going to demand a certain amount 
of magical prowess and thus, in theory, call on LV's limited reserves 
of strength. He needs Nagini for her venom, and after his last 
encounter with Harry, it is more than possible that he wants his 
sixth Horcrux in place before he confronts him again. Perhaps 
panicking is too strong a word, but I do think that Nagini is a 
horcrux out of necessity, at a time when perhaps even LV knew it was 
a risky venture. 

.
Brothergib previously
> > As for DD being mistaken, I was convinced after HBP, that DD had
> made a mistake somewhere along the line - maybe that Nagini wasn't
> actually a Horcrux. However, DH proved that DD was absolutely spot 
on!
> Therefore, I now find it difficult to believe that he was mistaken
> about Godric's Hollow. It is possible that he may have been, but I
> think the evidence argues against it!
> 
> Carol:
> What evidence? I don't see it. Can you find it in the scene in DH
> where LV is actually planning and committing the murder? Surely,
> that's were it would be if it existed. Unless you mean that Harry
> became an accidental Horcrux, in which case, he's not mistaken 
(though
> I was!), but DD doesn't mention that in the HBP scene we're
> discussing. I'm saying DD was mistaken about Tom wanting to use
> important murders to create his Horcruxes, and if JKR's chat 
comments
> count as canon, he *was* mistaken on that one (minor) point. Neither
> an Albanian peasant nor Bertha Jorkins counts as an important 
murder,
> and Myrtle is only important as his first-ever victim. As for 
objects
> important enough to be made into Horcruxes, what was left? Only the
> Sword of Gryffindor, which he certainly didn't have. (I was sure 
that
> Nagini was a Horcrux, BTW, and boy, was she!)

Brothergib again:

`So,' said Harry, `the diary's gone, the ring's gone. The cup, the 
locket and the snake are still intact and you think there might be a 
Horcrux that was once Ravenclaw's or Gryffindor's?'
`An admirably succinct and accurate summary, yes,' said Dumbledore 
bowing his head.
P474 HBP, UK edition

DD's ideas about the Horcruxes were 100% accurate. I don't want to 
make this post even longer by providing a long list of events that DD 
correctly predicted, but I hope that you would agree that DD is 
seldom wrong.

`I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your 
death'.
P473 HBP, UK edition

DD was SURE. IMO, canon shows us that, yes DD is fallible, but when 
it comes to predicting how LV acted/will act – he is always correct. 
As LV himself says;

`You are omniescent as ever, Dumbledore'.
P416 HBP, UK edition

Harry was a significant death, and would therefore fit with DD's 
theory. There is no particular evidence in the text that LV was 
thinking about Horcruxes as he approached the cottage in Godric's 
Hollow, but if DD was sure this is what LV was intending, then that 
is good enough for me.

> > 
> > Brothergib previously;
> > Again, I'm not sure that proves that he wasn't intending to make 
a 
> > Horcrux after the event. But I agree that the lure of 
Gryffindor's 
> > sword must have been great.
> 
> Carol:
> Okay, good. A compromise view we can agree on. He went to GH to kill
> the Prophecy Boy, his primary motive and the only one revealed in 
the
> text, with the possible hope or intention of obtaining the Sword of
> Gryffindor now that he was invincible ("the one with the power to
> defeat the Dark Lord" having been destroyed). It would have been 
easy
> enough, in his view, to kill DD, take over Hogwarts, steal the 
Sword,
> and make it a Horcrux to complete his collection. But with the only
> one who could defeat him out of the way, he would have felt a little
> less need to create an additional Horcrux. Only, of course, it 
didn't
> quite work out as planned.
> 
Brothergib again:
Thinking this through again LV has always possessed the object 
destined to become the horcrux before commiting the murder. Therefore 
it seems unlikely that he would split his soul on the offchance that 
he might acquire the object at a later date. Therefore, I do believe 
that LV intended to make a horcrux with Harry's death, but that the 
sword was not necessarily the intended horcrux. I certainly do not 
believe that LV believed that he could easily kill DD and claim the 
sword;

For a second, Harry was on the verge of shouting a pointless warning: 
he was sure that Voldemort's hand had twitched towards his pocket and 
his wand.
`Lord Voldemort's Request, P417 HBP, UK edition

When push comes to shove, LV does not have the bottle to take on DD. 

Perhaps LV intended to make his wand a horcrux, the wand that had 
defeated his greatest threat – that would have been significant to 
LV. 

While I agree that there is no direct canon evidence to state that LV 
wanted to create a horcrux with Harry's death, but I do think that 
DD's comments represent very strong circumstantial evidence. As JKR 
herself says `The man was brilliant'!

Brothergib