Good and Bad Slytherins

[prep0strus]

No: HPFGUIDX 175030

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboyminn at ...> wrote:

> What I am about to say, is not build on canon, but on
> common sense and worldly experience. It seems 
> unreasonable to me to assume EVERY SINGLE person in
> Slytherin becomes a Dark Wizard. That's not exactly 
> what Hagrid said, but the implication is the same.
> 
<SNIP>
> Take Lucius Malfoy, ignoring for the moment that he
> became a New Death Eater; he seems a respected 
> citizen. He gives to worthy causes. To maintain his
> fortune, he must conduct business as usual, and in the
> process, he must interact normally with other citizens.
> He must be able to function in the world. I'm sure he 
> is ruthless, cunning, and arrogant in how he does it, 
> but none the less, he functions in the normal wizard 
> world. 
> 
<SNIP>
> 
> I have no logical reason to believe that there isn't 
> also some percentage of Gryffindors, Hufflepuffs, and
> Ravenclaws that are also willing to skirt the edges.
> 
> Again, that's not based on canon, that's based on
> common sense, something that shouldn't be abandon
> simply because we are in the wizard world.
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> Steve/bboyminn
>


Prep0strus:

But, as you say, that's not based on canon, that's based on common
sense.  Which is why, for all the books, I waited and waited to be
shown a Slytherin I could respect.

I had such high hopes for Slughorn.  Ooh, look at this, a Slytherin
Dumbledore is friends with!  He seems nice! Sure, he's a little
gluttonous, but all of our main characters have flaws!

But, no.  IMO, he's a selfish, sycophantic toad who creates his own
hierarchy and treats 11 year olds as if they are nothing if they don't
suit his purposes.  Also, he is at heart, a coward.  He is not evil,
and he even overcomes some of his cowardice (the way Snape overcomes
some of his evil, but it doesn't make him a nice guy).  But I don't
like Slughorn.

That's what I've been saying at least - we all know that not all
Slytherins are EVIL. But it's nearly impossible to LIKE any of them. 
Sure, in your common sense world, people from all houses live normal
productive lives, interact with each other, and the house system
almost fades away after school.

But in the world of canon, in JKR's world, every single Death Eater
that we know the house of, is Slytherin.  We have Peter the betrayer,
and the fellow from Durmstrung, but if JKR wanted to show the real
fallibility of the other houses, she would occasionally have it
mentioned that another DE was Hufflepuff, or Ravenclaw, or Griffindor.
 Instead of showing us Crabbe and Goyle and Avery and Malfoy and
basically every Slytherin last name we meet is a DE.

And, in the world of canon, JKR never mentioned a likable Slytherin.
Working in the world is one thing - Slughorn works in the world, and
even does some good.  But disregarding common sense, which it seems
JKR disregarded a long time ago when it comes to the house system,
this isn't a fair world or an equal world.  I can imagine lots of
possibilities.  But I can only believe them if JKR shows it to me.

To all who mentioned Tonks' mom... I guess I'll have to take the one
tiny example as someone who I barely met and knew, and still liked. 
It's on that tiny framework that I would have to build any hope that
Slytherins aren't totally unpleasant people that I'd prefer didn't exist.

As for Malfoy? Seriously?  I don't think being able to function in the
world is really a skill that suddenly makes Slytherins worthwhile.  He
doesn't need to have three heads and spout flame to be evil.  Malfoy,
even before Voldy's return keeps a house full of dark objects, one of
which he passes on to an innocent 11 year old girl, and it almost
kills her.  Malfoy raises his son to hate Muggleborns.  He
participates in the Muggle torture at he beginning of GoF.  Malfoy's
'respect' comes from his money and the fear of what he once was. And
became again.

~Adam (Prep0strus)



Alla:
I cannot speak for Jen, but I guess what I would have argued with the
examples of Malfoys sitting in the Hall is that there IS a change
from the beginning of the narrative.

The fact that they ARE there and not in Azkaban, Lucius I mean and
Draco is not dead, etc.

Correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying that change is not
substantial for you, no?
~Alla

Prep0strus:

This is not substantial for me, either.  Someone else along the post
mentioned that the Malfoys go wherever the best wind is flowing, and
that is very true.  Unlike Snape (I can't believe I'm defending Snape
here), the Malfoys didn't turn against Voldemorte.

What we see is that their family ties are ever so slightly stronger
than their ties to Voldy.  I feel that if in some circumstances Voldy
had simply blasted Draco apart, they would've been devastated, but too
afraid to leave Voldy.  In the instance we see, Narcissa notes that
Voldy has STILL not been able to kill Harry.  This is a huge blow to
the all powerful voldy she has believed in.  She knows her son, who
she does love, is in danger, when she finds out he is alive, she
abandons the battle to find him.

If voldemorte had still somehow won that last battle, and he had been
sitting at the table gabbing with the death eaters, you can be the
Malfoys would've been there.

I wonder if the Malfoys have to go to Azkaban for their part in what
happened.  They didn't help the good guys, so I don't see why they
would be given a reprieve.  Simply for not taking place in the last 10
minutes of the battle?

A fundamental change does seem to occur in Draco by the epilogue, but
had Voldemorte won the big battle, I don't see him as in the small
resistance in the WW, or even staying away.  I see him still trying to
curry favor with the Dark Lord.

I feel for the Malfoys some, but not much.  These were not nice
people.  And yet... their family survives unscathed.  As everyone else
grieves, basically, they come out of it basically fine.  Perhaps the
loss of Crabbe is enough to teach Draco a lesson.  Not that there's
much use crying over spilt evil.

~Adam (Prep0strus)