good and bad slytherins/Disappointment and Responsibility

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 175043


> > Magpie:
> > I'm not sure which argument of mine this is supposed to counter. 
> > Pippin said that everyone was sitting together regardless of 
house, 
> > and I was compelled to say that the Malfoys--the ones who have 
> > basically been like the other Slytherins--are naturally sitting 
by 
> > themselves and not part of the celebration, they're merely not 
> being 
> > bothered.
> > 
> > I have not made any argument for "cast off" Slytherins or 
ignored 
> > that they are in the Great Hall at all (as JKR's said in an 
> > interview, they will weasel out of punishment through it). I've 
> said 
> > that Slytherin house proved itself not too great in these books 
and 
> > unsurprisingly their behavior colors the way they fit in with 
the 
> > rest of the school. They're not cast off, they're tolerated as 
long 
> > as they're not being too bad. What I'm arguing against is the 
idea 
> > that there's some big change and coming together in the 
epilogue. 
> > Seems to me they're just in one of the probably many long 
periods 
> > where Slytherin's not a big problem, but is still the house with 
> the 
> > reputation for the Dark Arts etc. I'm not giving the story a 
> > resolution I don't think it had or wanted to have.
>  <SNIP>
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I cannot speak for Jen, but I guess what I would have argued with 
the 
> examples of Malfoys sitting in the Hall is that there IS a change 
> from the beginning of the narrative.

Magpie:
I'm acknowledging the change from the beginning of the narrative. 
I'm just saying what I think the change is. The Malfoys choose each 
other over allegience to the Dark Lord, and so are not DEs in the 
last moments. I've no doubt they're glad Voldemort is gone. JKR 
seems to sum up their position pretty well: they're sitting there 
looking around like they're not so sure they ought to be there, but 
no one is paying them any attention. 

Alla:
> Slytherin's flag was not in R of R? Well, as you said like it or 
nto 
> Slytherin *did** start from a different place than other houses, 
as 
> the only house wholeheartedly supporting DE ideology, it makes 
total 
> sense for me that for them baby steps of change is substantial 
change.
> 
> IMO of course.
> 
> I mean in the beginning Harry rejects Draco's hand of friendship.
> 
> At the end Narcissa's hand pretty much saves Harry. To me it is a 
> very substantial change.
> 
> I mean, what would be to you a substantial change in Malfoys? 

Magpie:
"Substantial" can be relative. It could be considered substantial 
that they see what really matters to them is each other. But that's 
what we end up with. Nobody in canon seems under any illusions that 
the Malfoys are like anybody else in that hall, nor should they be. 
They did what they did and their position reflects it. I don't deny 
Narcissa saves Harry. I also don't deny how Narcissa comes to save 
Harry, what she's doing etc. It's great for Harry that she sees her 
chance and takes it, but the baby steps don't seem like steps on the 
way to much else. It's not bad that she helps him for personal 
reasons, but I think anyone would know to be careful about 
considering her an ally.


Alla: 
> It just while I understand totally what you are talking about 
> Slytherin not being in the battle in general, I would also never 
> assume that they were there, I just do not get how Malfoys being 
> present in the Hall is not a substantial change IMO.

Magpie:
It is a change. It's the change that it is. I was responding to the 
specific statement that nobody was sitting by house, including Draco 
Malfoy, which seemed to indicate them being one of the crowd, and it 
just seemed obvious to say what the seating arrangements of the 
Malfoy's are. I'm not saying there's not change in this family from 
what they were at the beginning, or even the beginning of the book. 
I'm just describing what it seems like the change actually is. 

Prep0sterous:
I wonder if the Malfoys have to go to Azkaban for their part in what
happened. They didn't help the good guys, so I don't see why they
would be given a reprieve. Simply for not taking place in the last 10
minutes of the battle?

Magpie:
As per an interview, they don't go to Azkaban because 
they "colluded" with Harry in the end--the term she uses 
is "weaseled out." Iow, I think she is confirming this view. They 
luckily were not on the wrong side when it went down--which is not 
the same as being on the right side. And this even though one would 
think the Malfoys had every reason to see the error of their ways 
and have reason to act more decisively. Particularly Draco who 
hadn't ever seen the truth until later than his parents. He isn't 
going to grow into his father, true, but he still falls far short of 
what I think many normal people would have acheived in the same 
circumstances. 

The Malfoys have been clearly independent underneath it all 
throughout the series. They've never been Barty or Bellatrix. Lucius 
was of course happy to shed his allegiance when Voldemort went down--
he unfortunately also then thought he could hang onto the same 
beliefs and pass them on to his son, giving him a completely wrong 
idea of where those beliefs really led. They're punished throughout 
canon enough and wind up in a position where they don't need to go 
to Azkaban.

I had mistakenly thought that Harry's awareness of the 
disillusionment in HBP would give him some leverage so that there 
might be a more conscious choice, particularly on Draco's part. Not 
Draco "saving the day" but not what we got. That didn't enter 
Harry's mind--I was wrong about lines at the end of HBP pointing 
towards Harry using that information to his advantage. 

What's funny is I'm not bothered by characters saving themselves at 
all. I love those kinds of characters. I thought Draco's, "I'm Draco 
Malfoy! I'm on your side!" was hilarious and not a bad thing to do 
at all--good for him, especially with the real grin he gives to 
his "savior" when it doesn't work. I'd love to read that kind of 
character in a story about that. But unfortunately for me while the 
Malfoys seem to have the survival luck of cockroaches they don't 
also seem to have a great sense for what's good for them, so I can't 
root for or admire them on that score either. (They actually fell 
down in my opinion on that score from where I started, back when I 
just imagined slippery Lucius pleading Imperius.) It's not just that 
they're not working for the higher reasons, it's that they don't 
really seem that good working for the reasons they're supposed to 
have either. This perhaps again goes back to my noticing that the 
very qualities Slytherins are supposed to be known for seem to show 
up in far more impressive ways in other people. 

-m