Disappointment and Responsibility (was Re: Requiescat in Pace: Unforgivables)

[lizzyben04]

No: HPFGUIDX 175076

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" <foxmoth at ...> wrote:
>
> > 
> > lizzyben:
> > 
> > I never read a Christian message into the text, and am not a 
> > practicing Christian. I don't care if the books have a Christian, 
> > pagan, atheist or Hindu theme, as long as there is some type of 
> > coherent theme in the novels. And that's what I find lacking. So, 
> > I'm not disappointed by the lack of a Christian theme, but the lack 
> > of any coherent theme. 
> 
> Pippin:
> I think the theme is stated  all over the place.  It's choosing what to 
> believe, specifically, whether to believe, as Dumbledore did, that
> one can " find something to value in anyone, however 
> apparently insignificant or wretched" (ch 2). Kingsley put it
> another way in his broadcast: "Every human life is worth the 
> same, and worth saving." (ch 22)


lizzyben:

I actually thought about Kingley's statement, with a sigh, after
finishing the novel. Because this is a clear case where the
superficial message goes against the actual message of the novels.
It's very clear that every life does *not* have the same worth in the
Potterverse, and this is my main objection to the House sorting. JKR
herself says that she hopes she would be "worthy" enough to be in
Gryfindor, meaning that Gryfs are superior to people in other houses,
w/Slytherins as the "unworthy." Are we really asked to find something
to value in Pansy Parkinson, Crabbe, Yaxley, etc? No. People are
trying really, really hard to find an admirable Slyth, but I think
that's going against the canon as JKR has written it. You've stated
earlier that Slytherin is supposed to represent the "less noble" human
qualities - envy, cunning, etc. and Lupinlore basically says that
Slyths are the "bad guys" of society. I agree that that's the message
- I just totally disagree w/it because it does seem to value some
lives as more worthy than others. It also carries with it the implicit
contention that this worthy elect have a "right to rule" over everyone
else because of their superior virtue. As another poster said, that's
pretty much a prescription for dictatorship. 

Pippin:
> Did Harry know this all along? I don't think so -- didn't he say,
> back in PS/SS that Neville  was worth ten of Malfoy because Neville
> was a Gryffindor and Malfoy was in "stinking Slytherin" ? And yet
> at the end of it all he says this "It doesn't matter to us. But if it
> matters to you, you'll be able to choose Gryffindor over Slytherin."
> 
> Sounds like  rather a major shift in Harry's thinking. Of course
> we're not told how it happened, um  except for Harry getting to
> walk a mile in Snape's black boots in HBP, masquerading as the
> Halfblood Prince,  trying to find proof  that his classmates are 
> messing with something way over their heads, and nearly getting 
> expelled for it, being accused of messing with Dark Magic, 
> thinking his best friend will drop him if he finds out who Harry
> fancies, etc.   

lizzyben:

It's nice that Harry tells his child that it's OK to be in Slytherin,
but even that message is subverted when he also tells (encourages?)
his child to select a different house. Meanwhile, Ron taunts his kids
about the House, and James Jr. teases Albus about ending up there. If
anything, prejudice against the house is even stronger than when Harry
went to school. Albus Severus's worst nightmare is being sorted there.
Ending up in Slytherin house is like being damned, and maybe it is. 

> Lizzyben:
> > 
> > No, what really broke the novel for me wasn't the lack of Snapey-poo 
> > or Draco, but the lack of any example of a good, or even decent 
> > Slytherin 
> 
> Pippin:
> Must we  define good and decent, or brave and trustworthy,
> in Gryffindor terms?  If good and decent means rushing headlong into 
> battle with no idea what you're going to do except hit the enemy with 
> everything you've got -- well, that's not the Slytherin way. 
> 
> 
> But as Harry discovered, there are other kinds of bravery. 

lizzyben:

I don't, probably you don't, but the books do. "Gryfindor" traits *are
better* than the traits of the other houses. Snape is viewed a small
exception to the general rule of Slytherins solely because he exhibits
a Gryfindor trait - bravery. He's not lauded for his cunning,
ambition, etc. Or his intelligence or loyalty, for that matter. In
this world, Gryfindor traits are the yardstick upon which everyone is
measured.


Pippin:
> <snip> Now, I may be way off course here, but consider the facts.
> The legend of the wand that must pass by conquest was widely known.
> Voldemort and Snape seem to have discussed it. 
<snip>
> Snape could, in other words, have tried to get Voldemort to spare him,
> at the cost of setting Voldemort on a few more innocent lives. 
> 
> But he didn't. 
> 
> He may not have shown remorse for all his failings, but he did
> show true repentance for one of them-- he faced the same temptation
> he had faced when he gave the prophecy to Voldemort, and this time he
> passed it by.  
> 
> Choose to believe, or not.

lizzyben:

Honestly, I can't even keep track of the Elder Wand thing enough to
know or care if Snape made some sort of voluntary great sacrifice by
not fighting back. The various wand-ownerships become so confusing
that it's not even clear what DD's plan for the wand actually was. So,
I'd say that if that (lack of) action is meant to show Snape's
repentance, it was not clearly done. 

Pippin:
> As to the other Slytherins...
> 
> Voldemort claims that the Slytherins who left the school joined him.
> 
> But he is a notorious liar.
> 
> In fact, we don't see *any* of the Slytherin students doing his bidding 
> Draco is acting quite on his own.
> We don't know whether the Slytherins  left in order to
> join him, or whether they left to keep their families from being
used as 
> hostages, as Voldemort used Neville's grandmother. 
> 
> Some of them might even have had sneaky plans, ala Regulus. They
> might have even come back with Slughorn, polyjuiced or in disguise.

lizzyben:

Well, you can get creative w/alternate scenarios, but JKR *never*
presents us w/any evidence that any of this is true, and never
presents anything that contradicts LV's statement. At the same time,
she purposely draws attention to the empty Slyth table, & Pansy's
betrayal. JKR makes the message pretty clear. 

Pippin:  
> JKR doesn't tell us. Once we had to choose whether to believe with no 
> certain evidence that Dumbledore was right to trust Snape, 
> Now we have to choose to believe that we can "find something to 
> value in anyone, no matter how *apparently* (emphasis mine) 
> insignificant or wretched."  Or not. 

lizzyben:

This is a bit off-topic, but what was with the crying child in the
King's Cross station? I mean, I get it was supposed to be Voldemort,
but still. The description is heart-breaking: "A small naked child
curled on the ground, its skin rough & raw, lay shuddering on a seat
where it had been left, unwanted, stuffed out of sight, shuddering for
breath." Harry wants to comfort this wretched suffering child, but DD
keeps telling him "you cannot help," and tells him to ignore the
child's pain. The creature keeps whimpering & trembling, but as DD
rambles on, eventually the creature's whimpers don't disturb Harry
anymore. He's followed DD's orders and restrained his natural empathy
for any suffering person. He's tuned out the pain. Now, what does this
say about DD's ability to see value in *anyone*, no matter how
wretched or insignificant? I can't get over that image of DD & Harry
chatting conversationally while a wounded, suffering, unwanted child
cries for help. And DD tells Harry that there's no way to help. 

Based on the description of this being, I first thought, not of LV,
but of Snape - the whimpers sounded like the earlier description of
Snape whimpering like a wounded animal. The "unwanted, unloved,"
sounded like Snape's childhood. "Struggling for breath" sounded like
how Snape struggled to breathe in SWM, how he struggled to breathe
after Lily's death. "Stuffed out of sight" sounded like the
description of Snape as "a plant that has been kept too long in the
dark." When they talk about Snape's death ("that bit didn't work
out"), the creature jerks and moans. And DD ignores its agony. This
broke my heart, for real. To me, it seemed like a damned soul, and DD
telling Harry not to help is the Calvinist position that we *can't*
help. Salvation or damnation has already been pre-destined.

And that wretched creature also reminded me of Merope, and the elves,
and the goblins, and all the beings that are "stuffed out of sight" in
this horrid society. If the wizards are going to maintain their
superiority and their comfort, they're going to have to learn to
ignore the suffering they cause. DD does - and eventually Harry does
as well. This allows him to return to his natural position in the
elect of the Wizarding World, w/o needing to focus on these oppressed
& unwanted beings anymore. Thus the saccharine empty happy ending.  

Pippin:
> JKR doesn't make it easy for us, because in RL it's not easy. There are
> always going to be occasions when people *apparently* fit the labels
> and stereotypes. And there are genuine, deeply felt differences between
> cultures that are not going to be wiped away by everybody standing
> in a circle singing the WW equivalent of Kumbayah. 


lizzyben:

No, she makes it very, very easy for us. Some people are worthy of our
sympathy & admiration, and some are not. And we can easily distinguish
them based on house. Readers have cheerfully subverted this message to
adopt Snape, Draco & Slytherin House, but JKR was never very happy
about that. Slytherins are meant to be the unworthy, the "other",
possibly even the damned. 

Pippin:
We should take heart,
> JKR seems to be saying, from brief glimpses of how things could be: the
> chastened wizard, Fudge, led forward by the goblin and the house elf at
> the end of OOP. Or the moment in DH when "nobody was sitting according 
> to House anymore."   Including Draco Malfoy.
> 
> Pippin
>

lizzyben:

No one was sitting according to House anymore because there weren't
any Slytherins left! The only Slyths were the Malfoy family, who
remained huddled in a corner. So, the message is that House unity is
possible as long as Slyths are purged from the school - that's *not* a
positive message about Slytherin. No, much as we try (and believe me,
I've tried) JKR's message about Slytherin House is clear &
unavoidable. They are the unworthy, the bad guys, the villains, who
have been assigned every negative quality you can think of in order to
fulfill that role. It does go against common sense to think that 25%
of the population is just bad, horrible, & unredeemable, but that's
the world we've been presented in canon. 


lizzyben