good and bad slytherins/Disappointment and Responsibility

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 175136

Carol earlier:
> > Sirius chose to be in Gryffindor to be with his new friend, James,
who hated Slytherin. And both of them turned up their noses at
Severus's choice to be in the house that he thought stood for "brains,
not brawn," labeling him as "Snivelllus" for no other reason than that
he saw Slytherin as a place that would accept a Muggleborn and honor
intellect. <snip>  We're looking at children's prejudices and mutural
ignorance here, not a choice based on principle or a rejection of
pure-blood superiority or the Dark Arts. Even James's choice is
presumably based on his father's having been in Gryffindor, just as
Severus's choice of Slytherin seems to be based on his mother's
placement there.
> > 
> > Had Sirius not met the less than loveable James Potter and wanted
James to view him as "all right," he would probably have ended up in
Slytherin like the rest of his family. There's nothing to indicate
that he thinks it's a Dark or prejudiced House. And do we ever hear
Sirius expressing his views on Muggle-borns vs. pure-bloods? I don't
recall it. He certainly doesn't care about the rights of house-elves.
> > 
> > Carol, who sees nothing relating to principle in Sirius's choice
of Gryffindor and nothing to admire in the choice
 
 
Prep0strus responded:
> 
> It seems a lot to ask that if James knew differently, he say so...
in the one of a very few scenes we see from Snape's perspective. 

Carol again:

It's not Snape's perspective. it's the Pensieve, which is objective.
Neither James nor Sirius says anything about the Dark Arts or blood
prejudice. All we have is James's expressed desire to be in his
father's House, which he associates with bravery, Severus's desire to
be in Slytherin, which he associates with brains, James's sneers at
Slytherin for no specified reason, and Sirius's hesitation between his
parents' House and his new friend and his choice of the new friend and
his preferred House (no doubt detected by the Sorting Hat later).

Prep0strus:
Now, we know James became a bit of a bully, but it's absurd to think
that that was all there was too it.

Carol responds:
I didn't say that was all there was to it. Please don't put words in
my mouth. And it does not serve any purpose to label someone else's
argument as absurd. James is already showing himself as "a bit of a
bully" in this scene, tripping Severus and using language that echoes
(or presages) Draco's about Hufflepuff. We see that Severus has done
nothing to earn the nickname Snivellus and that James does indeed
torment him in the SWM scene "because he exists." (I think that in a
fair fight Severus would have given him a run for his money, but
that's neither here nor there.)
> 
Prep0strus:
> In a few years, Lily would come to accuse Snape of wanting to join up
> with Voldemorte with his friends.  <snip>

Carol responds:
I'm not talking about "in a few years." Nor am I talking about their
later (post-"toerag") choice to join the Order of the Phoenix). I'm
talking about Sirius Black's reasons for wanting to be in Gryffindor,
which have everything to do with James and nothing to do with
principle that I can see, and I've quoted the entire scene except for
a few bits relating to Harry.

Prep0strus:
> And Sirius? Well, Sirius would be at home listening to his
dark-supporting family probably PRAISING the actions of voldemorte and
cronies, and certainly talking down muggleborns, muggles, and
griffendors - a person who was the first in his family to buck a
tradition of rivalry.  In order to even be open to James as a friend,
I think there has to be a lot more to him - a lot more good and
righteousness.
> 
> And Sirius was a member of the Order of the Phoenix.  Before being
framed, before years in Azkaban.  He was on the side that fought
against prejudice, against hatred.  <snip>

Carol responds:

We don't have any canon for Sorius' reasons for joining the Order of
the Phoenix, only his Gryffindor banners an posters of Muggle
artificat, which seem to represent adolescent rebellion, in contrast
to the "good son's" Slytherin banners and artifacts. (Lots of irony
going on in both portrayals, but I don't want to get into that here.)
What we don't know is whether Sirius's principles ever changed.
Perhaps he was indoctrinated in gryffindor values as Severus was
indoctrinated in Gryffindor ones. All we have that I can recall is his
statement about James's opposition to the Dark Arts (not in evidence
in the scene in which they're all eleven-year-olds, as I'll show in a
moment) and his telling his mother's portrait to shut up. We also see
him pointing out to Harry that his favorite cousin, Andromeda, has
been burned off the tapestry for marrying a Muggle-born, and his
hatred of his cousin Bellatrix. But all of that is the adult Sirius,
after the deaths of the Potters and Pettigrew's betrayal and his own
imprisonment. What I don't see, in either the child Sirius in "The
Prince's Tale" or the adolescent Sirius helping to ambush Severus
Snape (who is reviewing the test questions after a DADA OWL), is any
sign of principles. The closest we get is "toerag" James saying that
*he* would never call Lily a Mudblood).

But I'm not talking about the SWM. I'm talking about the first
encounter between Sirius, James, and Severus on the Hogwarts Express.

A little canon then (and I really am wondering why so few people are
quoting it at this point).

"'You'd better be in Slytherin,' said Snape, encouraged that she
[Lily] had brightened a little.

"'Slytherin?' One of the boys sharing the compartment, who had shown
no interest in Snape or Lily at all until that point, looked around at
the word, and Harry . . .  saw his father, slight, black-haired like
Snape, but with that indefinable air of being well cared for, even
adored, that Snape so conspicuously lacked.

"'Who wants to be in Slytherin? I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?'
james asked the boy lounging on the seat opposite him. . . [BTW,
James's words precisely echo Draco's sneer about Hufflepuff in SS/PS:
"Imagine being Sorted into Hufflepuff. I think I'd leave, wouldn't
you?" SS Am. ed. 77).]

"Sirius did not smile. 'My whole family have been in Slytherin,' he said.

"'Blimey,' said James. 'And I thought you seemed all right!'"

"Sirius grinned. 'Maybe I'll break the tradition. Where are you
heading, f you've got the choice?'

"James held up an invisible sword. 'Gryffindor, where dwell the brave
at heart. Like my dad"" (DH Am. ed. 671).

Just as Severus appears to have been told by his witch mother that
Slytherin (surely her old House) is a House for "brains, not brawn"
(as Severus says on the next page), James has been told by his
gryffindor father that Gryffindor is the House for "the brave at heart."

Sirius, who has been brought up with Slytherin values, has a choice.
Stay with his new friend, who sneers at Slytherin, or stay with family
tradition and lose his new friend.

He chooses James over his family, not because of any rejection of the
Dark Arts or pure-blood prejudice but because he'd rather be friends
with the "cool" James than the "little oddball" who thinks that
Slytherin is for brains, not brawn. sirius makes his choice with his
next remark, "Where're you going to go, seeing as you're neither?"

And as Lily suggests to Severus that they find another compartment,
James tries to trip Severus and Sirius [I think] calls out, "See ya,
Snivellus!" (672).

Not one of these eleven-year-olds is acting on principle. All are
basing their views of the Houses on what they've been told (Lily, the
sole Muggle-born, is the only one with no preconceptions) and Sirius,
the only one making a choice, does so because James is "cooler" than
Severus. (I'm remeinded of Harry's wish to be seen with someone "cool"
rather than with Neville and Luna in OoP.)

Sirius never loses his air of arrogant superiority, so like
Bellatrix's. Even their deaths show a kinship (except that he's an
Order member and she's a murderous DE). Both Dumbledore and hermione
criticize his attitude toward house-elves, which in DH is unfavorably
contrasted with his Slytherin brother's.

The adult Sirius does state that James always opposed the Dark Arts,
but, if so, that opposition plays no part in this scene. Nor does
pure-blood supremacy. In fact, James and Sirius are the pure-bloods
pitted against the Half-blood and his Muggle-born friend.

Had Sirius not met James and liked him, perhaps appreciating his
self-confidence bordering on arrogance or an air of mischievousness
like that of the Weasley Twins, he would have had no more reason than
his brother Regulus to question his family's view that he belonged in
Slytherin.

Carol, standing by her position that we are dealing here with the
uninformed opinions of eleven-year-olds and not with principle