good and bad Slytherins/Disappointment and Responsibility

[prep0strus]

No: HPFGUIDX 175149

Carol responds:

As for canon regarding their bullying others besides Severus Snape,
have you forgotten the detention that they received for giving another
student a swollen head in HBP (one of the old cards Harry has to
recopy during his post-Sectumsempra detention) or Lily's remarks about
James hexing people in the hallways because they annoy him?

"Toerag" is Lily's term, and her judgement seems to represent JKR's
own view of James at this time. At any rate, we get no counterevidence
that I can discover. You can use the adult Sirius Black's term,
"arrogant little berks" if you prefer. Unfortunately, I see nothing in
DH to contradict Lily's view. Poor James doesn't even die fighting
Voldemort as we've been led to believe.

Carol, who has already supported her argument with canon and thinks
it's your turn now

Prep0strus:

Unfortunately, other than DH, my Harry Potter books are in storage at
the moment.  So I'm unable to respond with canon.  I am glad to be
reminded of James hexing people who annoyed him and the like – he
really was a bully.  But who was the student? A slytherin?  And,
looking deeper into it, I have to wonder, coming from Lily? Could she
just be talking about Snape here?  Surely, he would hex Snape for no
reason at all.  I'm not saying it isn't likely he was a bit of a bully
all around, just that what we're hearing isn't the whole story.

I can't quote canon, but I can list the reasons why, over the books,
my feelings towards the characters have developed the way they have. 
I think a lot comes down to personal opinion, and what we're willing
to read between the lines.  For instance, I refuse to accept that
there simply has to be a nice and admirable slytherin I would be
friends with because JKR does not show us even one, and even though it
seems to make sense that in the world there must be such a person, I
find it so notable that she hasn't shown us one, that it keeps me from
having that belief. 

On the other hand, I fully admit I see much more in Sirius, James, and
Lupin than is shown on the page.  Perhaps the it is the passages I
choose to take note of.  But I think I can present my argument without
page numbers – if there is something someone believes to be simply
opinion, or factually wrong, I will cheerfully recant it.  And I
apologize for what surely will be a lengthy post.

First, I have to admit my prejudice for Griffindors and against
Slytherins.  I waited 7 books to be shown a Slytherin I could really
respect, and wasn't given one.  I grudgingly respect some aspects of
Snape, of Slughorn, of  Regalus.  And, of course, of Momma Tonks. 
But, as much as I wanted equality in the houses, I don't believe it
was presented that way.  Therefore, I believe my opinions are colored
by that, but I think that coloring was mostly done by JKR herself.

There has been some discussion of the Sorting Hat.  I do not believe
it is entirely choice.  I believe sorting is done by a mixture of
familial ties, ability, personality tendencies, and choice. 
Obviously, that is something no one can know for sure.

I believe that the children do not exist in a vacuum.  That they come
to school with the knowledge of what the houses stand for (if they are
from wizarding families), as taught to them by their families, but
also how society views them.  This is all conjecture, but I think
realistic conjecture based on conversations the children have on the
train, in school, and also on RL kids.  They know history.  They know
of dark magic.  They know the names of the villains in society and
what houses they came from. They know the names of heroes and what
houses they came from.  They know of the prejudice that exists in
society against certain members of society – including muggleborns,
the cursed (werewolves), half-breeds (like hagrid), and about problems
with other species like elves and goblins.  I believe they bring all
of this with them as part of their personality, as they make their
choice, and as the sorting hat evaluates them.

So, what of our characters?

James is the only one we don't see alive.  We know of him through the
statements of other characters, and through the Pensieve.  Which, I
was reminded, is not based on perspective, but on reality.  But, as I
pointed out, those memories still have to have the owner present, and
the owner makes the choice of what to show.

And of James, we see Snape's memories.  Now, perhaps this is a choice
of JKR's – that as she has only shown us James through Snape, maybe
she wants us to see all the bad in him.  But I think it's not that
simple.  I believe she hopes she has made the case of his goodness,
and is now showing the other side.  And we only see the Pensieve
memories of 3 characters, because they are important to the plotline.
 I would've liked to see a Pensieve memory of Lupin's.  But again, we
have to choose what we believe.  We can chose that JKR deliberately
showed us these, and only these memories, and it is based on them that
we should make our opinion of James.  I choose to believe that there
was much to James that we did not see in the presence of Snape.  That
both early on in school, and later on, there was a very different boy
present in the Griffindor common room, and helping Peter become an
animagus, and accepting his werewolf friend.

So, from Snape, we learn that James is a bully in school.  He is
arrogant.  He is prejudiced against Slytherins, and likes to harass
Snape.  We also learn he knows when too far is too far.  We know there
was a time when Lily thought he was a bullying toe-rag.

We know also that he did not use discriminatory slurs.  He did not use
dark magic.  

He was a great athlete, and a talented wizard.  He's from a rich
(comfortable?) wizarding family, a griffindor family.

Of the characters we have met:
He is well thought of by Hagrid, a half-giant, societal outcast. 
Hagrid also tells us how well liked both he and lily were by the ww.
He is well thought of by Sirius, his arrogant best friend from a
Slytherin family.
He is well thought of by Dumbledore, flawed champion against evil.
He is well thought of by Lupin, a werewolf societal outcast.
Lily, who thought he was once a toe-rag, whose best friend he
tortured, who thinks he's arrogant, and a bully
. She MARRIES him. 
This has got to mean something regarding the amount of growing up he did.

He joins the Order of the Phoenix out of school.  Whatever bullying
arrogance toe rag berkiness we may have been shown repeatedly in the
memories of snape
 this is not all he was.  He was brave, and fought
against evil.  I don't' know why people seem so gleeful or superior in
learning he didn't actually fight Voldemorte.  It's not like he holds
Harry up and hides behind him!  He tries to give his wife and son time
to escape from the most evil powerful wizard in the world.  That he
wasn't successful doesn't say anything worse of him than the thousands
of others voldy killed.

James was a bully as a kid.  But I choose to believe the testimonials
of the characters we've come to know when they say he was a good man.
 He appeared to be a good husband, and a good father.  He didn't use
dark magic, fought against evil, and defended the rights of those
society dismissed.  And, it may be reading into the world a little
more, but I also believe that there was more to him as a child – his
arrogance was that of a snotty kid.  But his dislike of Slytherin was
based on real world events.


Wow.  I can't spend that much time on all of these characters, can I?

Um. How can I abridge it?

Sirius comes with a different background than James.  I believe he was
more arrogant, and more reckless. I also believe he was inclined to
turn towards the dark side.  He so easily could be a Malfoy or a
Snape.  A family full of hatred and prejudice and love of the dark
arts on one side.  A cousin and some Griffindor friends on the other.
 And a view of the world surely twisted and seen through the lens of
the Black family, a view that must have broadened significantly when
he got to school.  Never took away that arrogant gleam, however.

But Sirius also grows up.  And fights for the Order.  And goes against
his family, which I believe shows great character.  And suffers many
years for his loyalty (and, yes, his impetuousness).

But, again, what I choose to see in him is his bravery, his loyalty,
his bucking of tradition to fight for his friends and what he believes
is right.  It is certainly a possibility that the hat could have put
Sirius into Griffindor just based on the whim of an 11 year old who
wanted to be a bully or thumb his nose at his parents.  But I think
that the hat of Griffindor, from which the Sword of Griffindor can be
pulled, is a little more nuanced than that.  And that Sirius was put
into Griffindor and became a man of principles.

Lupin, I've described as a societal outcast before, and yet, instead
of becoming vengeful, he's a wonderful student, a wonderful teacher,
and a wonderful friend.  And well on the way to becoming a wonderful
father.  His stumbles and flaws and redemptions belong in another
post, but as a child, he was lucky to find James and Sirius, such
loyal friends.

And snape.  What can be said of Severus that hasn't been said?  I
don't need canon to show that he was mean.  That he was petty.  That
he was cruel to children without provocation.  And as an adult.  I've
said before how frustrated I am that we can jump on James for his
actions as a child.  Actions against Snape.  The only views we have of
James as an adult show him as a model citizen – one of his biggest
detractors becomes the love of his life.  But we see Snape all too
clearly as an adult.  He made adult choices to become a Death Eater. 
And when he turned away from voldemorte, he still made adult choices
to treat children the way he did.  Compare how he would take points
from the houses vs. how McGonnegal did.  Sure, she wanted her team to
win the cup, and bent a few rules.  But Snape day after day took many
points from Griffindor for little reason and pretended not to see what
Slytherins did.  He preyed on the weak, and mocked them for things
they had no control over (Neville, and Hermione's teeth).

And, as a child, his choices
 well, maybe he was sorted too soon. 
Maybe it was his nogoodnik friends that got him into dark magic. 
Maybe if he had been a griffindor or a ravenclaw none of this would've
happened.  But if that's the case, I sure hope Albus Severus Potter
DOESN'T wind up in Slytherin.  Snape had a good and loyal friend in
Lily.  Who crossed house lines, who ignored bad hygiene (a thing
pretty hard for middle school girls to do!), who treated him with
respect and defended him against bullies from her own house.  And that
wasn't enough to keep Snape from wanting to know the dark arts.  From
teaching himself cruel spells, from him planning to join the death
eaters.  From using racial epithets.  I know I'm not quoting specific
canon here, but is anything I'm saying deniable?  Most of it isn't
opinion, just facts on who Snape was. 


It's hard, because while JKR wants us to believe characters make
choices, much more often I see characters turning out exactly how we
think they're going to.  Maybe that's why harry's parents generation
is so much more interesting.  A slytherin family boy becomes a
griffindor.  A bully becomes a noble man, husband, father.  A
griffindor becomes a traitor.  A werewolf is the levelheaded one.  And
a slytherin death eater revolts and redeems himself.  Much more
interesting than the younger generation.  But I do try to see the
choices the characters have made.  And I find it easier to forgive the
flaws of a man like James, who was a bully as a child, but grew into
the James we hear about from Dumbledore and Hagrid, who was married by
Lily, than I do Snape, who we acclaim because he forsake his evil
ways.  I think I would respect Snape more if he simply had never
become a death eater or a spy for the good guys – just lived his life.
 Would be less interesting that way, of course.  But I'll still throw
my arms around Sirius the arrogant, foolhardy loyal friend than I will
against Snape, the bitter, mean, reluctant hero.

~Adam (Prep0strus), who apologizes for the lack of canon, but hopes he
made valid points regardless, and who realizes he either has to stop
rehashing the same points, or at least learn to do so in a more
succinct manner