good and bad slytherins/Disappointment and Responsibility

[lanval1015]

No: HPFGUIDX 175154

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" 
<justcarol67 at ...> wrote:
>
> Carol earlier:
> > > Sirius chose to be in Gryffindor to be with his new friend, 
James,
> who hated Slytherin. And both of them turned up their noses at
> Severus's choice to be in the house that he thought stood 
for "brains,
> not brawn," labeling him as "Snivelllus" for no other reason than 
that
> he saw Slytherin as a place that would accept a Muggleborn and 
honor
> intellect. 


Lanval:
Small addition here: while James certainly speaks in a disparaging 
way about Slytherin (though strictly speaking, one could see Snape's 
comment to Lily, "You'd better be in Slytherin" as disdain for any 
other house), Sirius only admits to James in a rather glum way that 
his whole family has been in Slytherin. No turning up his nose at 
anyone. 

Then it's *Snape* who gets contemptuous and turns up is nose (he 
sneers, in fact) at James for wanting to be in SLytherin. He 
essentially calls Gryffindor the house of brainless jocks.

Only then does Sirius feel it necessary to throw a jab at Severus.  
The Snivellus comment -- well, JKR leaves it open who said it. 

Where do you get the idea that James and Sirius attacked Severus for 
believing that Slytherin would accept a Muggleborn? They didn't even 
know Lily. Nor did they appear to have picked up on the unspoken 
details of Snape and Lily's conversation. James and Sirius were 
talking to each other, and there's some indication that it was loud 
in the compartment, and that some other kids were present ("a group 
of rowdy boys").

Carol:

> > > Had Sirius not met the less than loveable James Potter and 
wanted
> James to view him as "all right," he would probably have ended up 
in
> Slytherin like the rest of his family. 


Lanval:
While Sirius did take to James immediately, I don't see why that 
*must* be the reason why he ended up in Slytherin. The distance to 
his family and their traditions seems to be present in Sirius' mind 
already. 

And please, just because James gets on Severus, and appears to be a 
bit of a spoiled brat, in no way means that he was less-than-
loveable to the rest of the world.



Carol:
There's nothing to indicate
> that he thinks it's a Dark or prejudiced House. And do we ever hear
> Sirius expressing his views on Muggle-borns vs. pure-bloods? I 
don't
> recall it. He certainly doesn't care about the rights of house-
elves.
> > > 
> > > Carol, who sees nothing relating to principle in Sirius's 
choice
> of Gryffindor and nothing to admire in the choice


Lanval:
Show me an eleven year old boy who lives entirely according 
to "principles". There's however no contradiction in canon either 
that Sirius did NOT already view some of his family's (and therefore 
Slytherin) beliefs as questionable.




> Carol again:
> 
> It's not Snape's perspective. it's the Pensieve, which is 
objective.
> Neither James nor Sirius says anything about the Dark Arts or blood
> prejudice. All we have is James's expressed desire to be in his
> father's House, which he associates with bravery, Severus's desire 
to
> be in Slytherin, which he associates with brains,


Lanval:
Makes me wonder, why would he think that? Clearly Ravenclaw is the 
Brainy House. Maybe Mrs Snape had a problem with "brawny kids"?



Carol:
James is already showing himself as "a bit of a
> bully" in this scene, tripping Severus and using language that 
echoes
> (or presages) Draco's about Hufflepuff. We see that Severus has 
done
> nothing to earn the nickname Snivellus and that James does indeed
> torment him in the SWM scene "because he exists." (I think that in 
a
> fair fight Severus would have given him a run for his money, but
> that's neither here nor there.)

Lanval:
Of course he's done nothing to earn the name. That's the way kids 
are.

And how do we "see", based on this scene, that James torments 
Severus "because he exists"? We see two boys -- not just one -- full 
of prejudice for each others family traditions, and one boy already 
doubtful about his. That's it. 



> Carol:
> I'm not talking about "in a few years." Nor am I talking about 
their
> later (post-"toerag") choice to join the Order of the Phoenix). I'm
> talking about Sirius Black's reasons for wanting to be in 
Gryffindor,
> which have everything to do with James and nothing to do with
> principle that I can see, and I've quoted the entire scene except 
for
> a few bits relating to Harry.


Lanval:
I'm not convinced. Rather the opposite. No eleven year old child, 
IMO, would throw off centuries of tradition, eleven years of 
indoctrination, on a whim like that, IF he were in absolute 
agreement with his family. Note that Snape gets sorted 
into Slytherin *after* Lily gets sorted into Gryffindor. Clearly his 
loyalty to Slytherin is stronger than several years of friendship 
with the girl he'd already come to love. 
No, i'm fairly certain that Sirius had long been toying with the 
idea that he may have a choice. He does at the very least appear to 
have an idea that the Sorting can be influenced by one's wishes. The 
budding friendship with James might have helped with the decision, 
of course. 

Snape fans have always loved to dwell on Snape's loneliness. Has it 
occurred to anyone that Sirius might have been just as lonely, maybe 
even more so? Just as starved for affection and looking desperately 
for a kindred spirit? We don't know how relations were with his 
brother. And we see that even when two sisters love one another, 
like Petunia and Lily, it is possible for both of them to feel 
sometimes alone, misunderstood, and jealous.

To wave away Sirius's sorting into Gryffindor as the mere on-the-
spot-rebellion of some arrogant brat looking for the coolest friends 
is hardly doing him justice. And not terriby fair either.


> 
> Carol responds:
> 
> We don't have any canon for Sorius' reasons for joining the Order 
of
> the Phoenix, only his Gryffindor banners an posters of Muggle
> artificat, which seem to represent adolescent rebellion, in 
contrast
> to the "good son's" Slytherin banners and artifacts. (Lots of irony
> going on in both portrayals, but I don't want to get into that 
here.)
> What we don't know is whether Sirius's principles ever changed.
> Perhaps he was indoctrinated in gryffindor values as Severus was
> indoctrinated in Gryffindor ones. All we have that I can recall is 
his
> statement about James's opposition to the Dark Arts (not in 
evidence
> in the scene in which they're all eleven-year-olds, as I'll show 
in a
> moment) and his telling his mother's portrait to shut up. We also 
see
> him pointing out to Harry that his favorite cousin, Andromeda, has
> been burned off the tapestry for marrying a Muggle-born, and his
> hatred of his cousin Bellatrix. But all of that is the adult 
Sirius,
> after the deaths of the Potters and Pettigrew's betrayal and his 
own
> imprisonment. What I don't see, in either the child Sirius in "The
> Prince's Tale" or the adolescent Sirius helping to ambush Severus
> Snape (who is reviewing the test questions after a DADA OWL), is 
any
> sign of principles. The closest we get is "toerag" James saying 
that
> *he* would never call Lily a Mudblood).

Lanval:

Sirius has no principles? His fighting for the Order (twice!) 
counts for nothing, because he only did it because a)he liked to be 
rebellious, and b)he did it for James? 

Let's just for a moment assume that Sirius Black really is, as you 
seem to assume, a man without principles. Which is a pretty damning 
statement. But let's assume it *was* all about James. Sirius changed 
his ways early in life because of James. He joined the Order because 
James did. It was all about James, all of his life (and later, about 
Harry). What loyalty.

Remind you of anyone?



Carol:
> But I'm not talking about the SWM. I'm talking about the first
> encounter between Sirius, James, and Severus on the Hogwarts 
Express.
> 
> A little canon then (and I really am wondering why so few people 
are
> quoting it at this point).
> 
> "'You'd better be in Slytherin,' said Snape, encouraged that she
> [Lily] had brightened a little.
> 
> "'Slytherin?' One of the boys sharing the compartment, who had 
shown
> no interest in Snape or Lily at all until that point, looked 
around at
> the word, and Harry . . .  saw his father, slight, black-haired 
like
> Snape, but with that indefinable air of being well cared for, even
> adored, that Snape so conspicuously lacked.
> 
> "'Who wants to be in Slytherin? I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?'
> james asked the boy lounging on the seat opposite him. . . [BTW,
> James's words precisely echo Draco's sneer about Hufflepuff in 
SS/PS:
> "Imagine being Sorted into Hufflepuff. I think I'd leave, wouldn't
> you?" SS Am. ed. 77).]
> 
> "Sirius did not smile. 'My whole family have been in Slytherin,' 
he said.
> 
> "'Blimey,' said James. 'And I thought you seemed all right!'"
> 
> "Sirius grinned. 'Maybe I'll break the tradition. Where are you
> heading, f you've got the choice?'
> 
> "James held up an invisible sword. 'Gryffindor, where dwell the 
brave
> at heart. Like my dad"" (DH Am. ed. 671).



Lanval:
And that's when Snape sneers at James, and insults his choice of 
house. Let's not omit that, if we're talking canon. 


Carol:
> 
> Sirius, who has been brought up with Slytherin values, has a 
choice.
> Stay with his new friend, who sneers at Slytherin, or stay with 
family
> tradition and lose his new friend.
> 
> He chooses James over his family, not because of any rejection of 
the
> Dark Arts or pure-blood prejudice but because he'd rather be 
friends
> with the "cool" James than the "little oddball" who thinks that
> Slytherin is for brains, not brawn. sirius makes his choice with 
his
> next remark, "Where're you going to go, seeing as you're neither?"
> 
> And as Lily suggests to Severus that they find another compartment,
> James tries to trip Severus and Sirius [I think] calls out, "See 
ya,
> Snivellus!" (672).
> 

Lanval:
Please show me proof that Sirius took to James because he thinks 
that James is a "cool kid" and that he thinks of Snape at this point 
as a little oddball. That's your interpretation only.
Nor does this scene prove that Sirius chose Gryffindor only because 
of James. Again, personal interpretation.

"..seeing as you're neither" also hardly confirms that Sirius made a 
choice. It's simply a reaction to Snape insulting James with his 
contemptuous remark.


Carol:
> Not one of these eleven-year-olds is acting on principle. All are
> basing their views of the Houses on what they've been told (Lily, 
the
> sole Muggle-born, is the only one with no preconceptions) and 
Sirius,
> the only one making a choice, does so because James is "cooler" 
than
> Severus. (I'm remeinded of Harry's wish to be seen with 
someone "cool"
> rather than with Neville and Luna in OoP.)
> 

Lanval:
Again, where do you get this idea? Where does it say that Sirius 
finds James cool? Couldn't he just find him likeable? Couldn't he 
just be happy James talked to him? Couldn't he be just be as 
anxious and worried and excited as the other kids, and feeling glad 
he found someone to talk to? Kind of like Harry felt about Ron, 
which would be a far more comparable situation, both featuring a 
first journey to Hogwarts.

What is it that draws kids to each other? What was it that drew 
Snape to Lily? He was watching her "greedily", so would it be fair 
to say he *only* became her friend because she was pretty (though 
there is certainly more canon for that than for Sirius being eager 
to hang with the cool kids)?


Carol:
> The adult Sirius does state that James always opposed the Dark 
Arts,
> but, if so, that opposition plays no part in this scene. Nor does
> pure-blood supremacy. In fact, James and Sirius are the pure-bloods
> pitted against the Half-blood and his Muggle-born friend.

> Had Sirius not met James and liked him, perhaps appreciating his
> self-confidence bordering on arrogance or an air of mischievousness
> like that of the Weasley Twins, he would have had no more reason 
than
> his brother Regulus to question his family's view that he belonged 
in
> Slytherin.
>

> Carol, standing by her position that we are dealing here with the
> uninformed opinions of eleven-year-olds and not with principle
>

Lanval:
Agreed, about the principles. But ideas and independent thought can 
develop at a young age. None of us know what Sirius was thinking 
when he boarded the Hogwarts train for the first time. 


Also: if we're talking arrogance, we might take a look at young 
Snape. Who obviously has a bit of a superiority thing going. 

I'm glad DH finally cleaned up with some fanon misconceptions about 
Snape. He was no innocent abused lamb, ganged up on from all sides 
for no reason. He spies, he snipes, he lies, he helps to drive a 
wedge between two sisters, and shows some pretty worrisome character 
traits. (That JKR still somehow manages to make Little Snape 
heartbreakingly, pathetically touching, is quite an accomplishment, 
I think). 

When sorted into Slytherin, there is applause. Lucius Malfoy, 
prefect, pats him on the back and lets him sit by his side.

I don't see a single line in DH that supports the idea that Snape 
was an outcast at Hogwarts because of the way he looked, or dressed, 
or because he was generally considered a "little oddball". He is 
welcomed into his house with no more or less of an advantage than 
anyone else. 

Come his fifth year, he *still* has friends. Not only in his own 
house, but also one from another house, which is somewhat unusual. 

So much for lonely, despised, persecuted-by-all Severus Snape.

There's more, but that's for another post.