good/bad slyth/Disappointment/Responsibility/Sorting/Snape

[prep0strus]

No: HPFGUIDX 175184

JudySerenity:
Well, Snape is certainly not an innocent by his late teens or so,
since he's joined the Death Eaters. However, you are making some
statements here that are not based in canon. You say that Snape
is "practicing the Dark Arts" and imply that he does so even as a
boy, even during the time when Lily is friends with him. The fact is,
though, that we hardly ever see Snape practicing the Dark Arts in
canon at all, and certainly not as a boy (unless you want to count
killing flies, which we see him doing once.) We see him cast
Sectumsempra once as an adult, but here he is actually trying to save
Lupin from a Death Eater. That is the extent of the Dark Arts that we
actually see Snape USE.

Prep0strus:
True, but as he invented Sectumsempra as a student, it stands to
reason he was investigating and practicing the dark arts then.  My
understanding is it would be difficult to invent a working spell
without having tested it.  And I believe it is naïve to think that
Snape never performed dark arts as a death eater simply because we
didn't hear about it.  I don't believe Voldemorte would allow his
followers to join up for a lark – he would expect to see their
commitment, and I think part of that would be showing willingness to
use the dark arts.  And do evil deeds – during the time Snape was with
the Death Eaters, I'm sure he didn't sit around and twiddle his
thumbs.  He may never have approached the depravity of some of the
other Death Eaters, but Snape had to have done evil.  And I don't
think it's possible for him not to have worked dark magic in order to
learn dark magic.


JudySerenity:
Now, I know at this point some of you will say that Snape does cause
pain, that he bullies Neville and insults Hermione's teeth, but
regardless of how hurtful you see this behavior as being, Snape
certainly doesn't use Dark Magic to do it. Snape can insult people
quite well without using magic at all. So, that can't be his goal in
learning the Dark Arts.
 
My point with this is not that he is using Dark Arts during his time
as a teacher – I definitely believe that he is NOT, that he has tried
to change that part of himself.  However, I believe he continues to be
a cruel and nasty person, even to children, and this is what makes him
irredeemable as a likeable character to me.  He could have performed
truly terrifying deeds, recanted, fought on the side of good, and
changed his outlook on life, and I could potentially like him.  But
what I see is someone who has partially recanted.  He still allows the
racial slurs.  He's still biased in class.  He's still mean.  

JudySerenity:


I've already discussed the fact that we don't see Snape "practicing
the Dark Arts", so let's look at Snape's "falling in with a crowd
that dislikes" Lily for her ancestry. How could Snape NOT fall in
with that crowd? Who else is there for him to "fall in with"? His
whole house is like that!

Prep0strus:
And I maintain that if his `whole house is like that!', there's a
reason for it – including a reason why HE'S there – because HE is like
that.  He does not HAVE to fall in with them.  In the current
Slytherin house, Draco has 2 lackies, not 4.  We don't know all that
much about those other students, but they do seem to go it alone. 
Snape could have done that. And he could have avoided the dark arts. 
But he didn't, and the choices are because he was drawn to evil, or
because he was weak.  I think it's a little bit of both. Neither makes
me that impressed by him.


Lanval:


I'm glad DH finally cleaned up with some fanon misconceptions about
Snape. He was no innocent abused lamb, ganged up on from all sides
for no reason. He spies, he snipes, he lies, he helps to drive a
wedge between two sisters, and shows some pretty worrisome character
traits. (That JKR still somehow manages to make Little Snape
heartbreakingly, pathetically touching, is quite an accomplishment,
I think).

When sorted into Slytherin, there is applause. Lucius Malfoy,
prefect, pats him on the back and lets him sit by his side.

I don't see a single line in DH that supports the idea that Snape
was an outcast at Hogwarts because of the way he looked, or dressed,
or because he was generally considered a "little oddball". He is
welcomed into his house with no more or less of an advantage than
anyone else.

Come his fifth year, he *still* has friends. Not only in his own
house, but also one from another house, which is somewhat unusual.

So much for lonely, despised, persecuted-by-all Severus Snape.



Prep0strus:

I loved this post!  I don't know why it never really clicked with me
before, but it's so true!  Snape, who had a hard childhood, did have a
friend in it – the good influence, Lily, and his relationship with his
mother appears to have a least some positive aspects.  Compare to
Harry, who had no one who showed him love, even if it doesn't appear
he was physically abused.

Then, he gets to school, and is immediately welcomed by his house.  In
addition, he keeps his cross-house-borders friend Lily for years,
while remaining a tight part of his Slytherin team.  He winds up
losing her friendship, but keeping theirs into adulthood.  It does
speak a little for Snape – his relationship with her, even after she
failed to forgive him, means so much to him that harm done to her
causes him to reject the social group he's had since he was 11, to
work against them.  That is pretty powerful.  But it doesn't excuse
him from joining that social group to begin w/ - and he DID have a
choice.  If anyone maintains he didn't, that simply means they believe
he was too weak to avoid influence, and I refuse to let that weakness
be something I admire in Snape.

But what this post does more (and I wonder if I should put this into a
different post), is make me wonder about the social dynamic at the
school in this time period.  Harry goes to school in a weird time –
the school is always partially shut down for some reason.  The Chamber
of Secrets is open, the Triwizard Tournament is going on, psycho
umbrage is there, Voldemorte's in charge of the Ministry
  These kids
don't get normal childhoods.  Who are the influences we see?  Maybe at
the beginning, the Quiddich teams and prefects
 there's Harry's trio,
Malfoy's trio, and the twins and Lee stirring the pot.

But check out the world of harry's parents!  Lucius and the group of
YDE (Young Death Eaters) surely have influence, the Marauders are
4-strong, and time for real influence to build up.  James is an
athlete and talented student; he's got three tight friends.  You've
got the Slytherins not being able to wait until they can get out and
do evil in the world – I can see them practically passing out support
buttons:  `Punch a Mudblood Today!', `Dark Power', and `We hold court
with Voldemorte!'.

The social dynamic has to be fascinating.  And, I'd like to add a
little canon in (I know, shocking, coming from me, but the people have
been begging for it ;))

I've been trying and trying to read in that James wasn't as horrible
as many people seem to think he is.  That he couldn't have grown into
the man he was without having redeeming qualities as a boy.  That
there is something missing when we only see James in Snape's memories.
 And then I found this statement, made by Snape:

"I'm just trying to show you they're not as wonderful as everyone
seems to think they are" pg 674

Take that however you want, but I don't think this supports the idea
that James and Sirius were big bullies torturing everyone in school. 
Yes, I can see an interpretation that to Snape `everyone' thinks
they're great, because `everyone' doesn't like Snape.  But Snape has
friends.  I think the correct interpretation is that James is a bully
to the Slytherins.  But perhaps a hero, not only to Griffindors (to
whom I can see him being a bully in any sense, not if he'd take Peter
into his crowd), but perhaps the Ravenclaws and Hufflepuff's too.

A lot happens between the years when they meet – and James was a jerk
to Snape right off the bat.  But the students know who is aiming to be
death eaters in the world.  There may have been the popular jocks in
griffindor and the outcasts in slytherin, but please let's remember
the outcasts were practicing evil and the jocks were simply being tools.

A few more statement from Lily:

"I know james potter's an arrogant toerag
 But Mulciber's and Avery's
idea of humor is just evil.." Evil, Sev.  I don't understand how you
can be friends with them."

"you and your precious little death eater friends – you see, you don't
even deny it!  You don't' even deny that's what you're all aiming to
be! You can't wait to join you-know-who,can you?"

"but you call everyone of my birth Mudblood, Severus.  Why should I be
any different?"


Oh, that scallywag Snape. Evil. Death Eater.  Mudblood.  And yet, many
see James as a young man to despise.  I confess, I will never be able
to understand it.

~Adam (Prep0strus), who is still irritated that he made a typo and
repeated the word `girl' in his Lily's Words post instead of changing
it to `woman' when Snape was a Death Eater