good and bad Slytherins/Disappointment and Responsibility

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 175217

> Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
> I think it's fine to want to see the best in people.  What I find 
a bit
> hypocritical, though (and I'm not directing this at you, but at 
the 
> general trend) is for either side to ignore the faults of their 
favorite
> characters, or to insist that these faults are meaningless, while
> insisting that the faults of the characters they disliked define
> their characters.
> 
> Of course, I'm as guilty of that as anybody.  If I insist that 
Snape
> is commendable because he is brave, while ignoring that he 
> treats young children badly, I'm being just as bad as someone 
> who insists that James was a hero because he died to protect
> his family while ignoring that he also cruelly bullied a boy merely
> because the kid "existed.'
<SNIP>

Alla:

I am unashamed Sirius' fan, always was and always will be.

I like to believe that I see his faults clearly enough - Arrogance, 
recklessness, being bully to Snape in Pensieve scene. ( obviously 
opinions may differ)

So, sure I see those flaws and acknowledge them. The thing for me is 
that **despite** those flaws I believe that Sirius and James were 
better people **altogether** than Snape.

I mean, I also agree with you, but from the other side :)

I for example always jump in to argue when Sirius' good qualities 
get dismissed as non-existent, that does not mean that I do not see 
his flaws. 


I used to genuinely believe that Snape is Evil or OFH HAHA, I still 
think that his motivations are mostly for himself, but how can I 
deny his heroic deeds, even if I believe they were done in the name 
of Lily only?

But at the same time, I choose to give his mistreatment of Harry 
more weight in my dislike of him than his heroic deeds.


> Carol:
> Can you cite some canon to support this view of Sirius at age 
eleven
> (not as a teenager whose bedroom is decorated to emphasize his
> differences with his family)? I don't see anything except his 
surprise
> at James's antipathy to the House that his family has always been
> Sorted into, his curiosity regarding the House James would prefer, 
his
> desire for James to think he's "all right," and his joining with 
James
> to ridicule Severus  (who admittedly treats them with equal 
disdain).
> It's James who trips Severus, but my impression (not provable, I
> realize) is that it's Sirius who coins the nasty and undeserved
> nickname "Snivellus," which he persists in using into his thirties.
> And why would he do that, except to get into James's good graces?

Alla:

I can cite canon in support of my **inference**, but since 
mentioning canon is enough,  that is what I am going to do.

So, I am just going to mention the canon in support of the inference 
that Sirius hated his family and his family hated him. That would be 
him talking to Harry about his family tree in OOP and his mom's 
portrait remarks to him.

We do not know when Sirius' hating his family started, I choose to 
believe that it started before he went to Hogwarts.


 
> Carol earlier:
> > > As I said in an earlier post, contempt for Muggles and contempt
> for Muggleborns are two different things. All we need to do to see 
the
> distinction, us vs. them, Magic vs. Muggles, is to look at the 
young
> *Dumbledore's* plans to rule Muggles for "the greater good."
> > <  BIG SNIP>
> > 
> Alla:
> > 
> > Yes, and I believe that Snape had plenty of both. Him stopping 
> himself when he answers Lily's question to me is an evidence of his
> comtempt for Muggleborns, just not for Lily. My view obviously.
> > 
> Carol:
> 
> Yes. Your view. Your opinion. What I'm looking for is canon to 
support
> that view. Canon shows Severus and Petunia as children not exactly
> hitting it off as friends, his view of her as a mere Muggle, and 
his
> determination to tell Lily that she, obviously a Muggleborn, is a
> witch. He's her introduction to the WW, talking about everything 
from
> Hogwarts to the Dementors at Azkaban. Yes, he hesitates when she 
asks
> whether being a Muggle-born makes a difference, but it's clear that
> her being a Muggle-born makes no difference to *him.* 
><BIG SNIP>


Alla:

Yes, Carol that is my view based on this same scene in **canon**. 
That is the only scene I have to base my view that eleven year old 
Snape has contempt for Muggleborns, but this is enough for me. We 
just interpret it drastically different. I interpret it that Lily is 
the **only** Muggle born whose being a witch does not matter to 
Snape, that every other Muggleborn is beneath him and I make this 
inference based also on previously mentioned canon of Lily saying 
that you call everybody of my birth Mudblood ( paraphrase).



> Montavilla47:
> I suppose that, speaking strictly for myself, it's partly that 
Snape's 
> major crimes are off the page.  Unless you want to count the 
> his classroom scenes, which I simply dismiss as a teacher being
> mean.  You know, teachers do that and you just learn to live with
> it.  And you keep your toad in your room, instead of carrying it 
> around with you.
> <SNIP>

Alla:

Indeed and I cannot dismiss them heeee.


Montavilla47:
<SNIP>
> I'm not trying to minimize the gravity of his crimes, I'm 
> explaining why they don't strike me as strongly as the
> things I actually know he's doing.  *Nothing* strikes me
> as strongly as those moments in the hospital wing in GoF.
> 
> It's Sirius gripping Harry's shoulder when he hears the 
> story of the graveyard.  It's Snape's glittering eyes when
> he leaves to try to convince Voldemort not to kill him.  It's
> the both of them, hating each other but also recognizing
> that they are on the same side.

Alla:

I actually quite agree with Va23 that Sirius and Snape are alike in 
many aspects ( and despite that I like one and dislike another, 
hehe), but yeah, I loved those moments too and I so hoped that 
handshake would mean something.

Montavilla: 
> So, yes.  Snape's more interesting than James.  So is Sirius
> and Lupin.  It isn't what they chose.  It's what it costs them
> to make their choices.
<SNIP>


Alla:

James did not come alive to me at all till Pensieve scene. I do not 
like saint characters, never did and when in Pensieve scene I saw 
James as bully, I loved him ever since, hhehehe.

Since to me Pensieve scene did not take away his good qualities, 
just added some real flaws.

But yeah, I totally find Sirius and Snape more interesting.