good and bad Slytherins/Disappointment and Responsibility

[juli17 at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 175220

 


Julie, earlier:
OF COURSE he was too weak to avoid influence,  because he was an
11 YEAR OLD child! All children are easily influenced, and  we see that
evidence from both James and Snape on the train. They've already  learned
certain "ideals" from their parents which has made each determined to  be
chosen by their particular houses.

Prep0strus:

I patently  disagree that all children are easily influenced.  That is
obviously not  a matter of canon, or Harry Potter, but I disagree with
the statement.   And children can choose to an extent where influence
comes from.  Snape  had Lily as influence. He did not HAVE to become a
death eater because he was  in Slytheirn.  I am one of the biggest
proponents of `there are no  worthwhile slytherins', but even I don't
go so far that to be put into the  house is a life sentence to death
eaterness.  He had a choice. And he  had multiple influences.  11 year
olds are not mindless creatures ready  to be manipulated.

I maintain, as I have this entire time, that children  know what is
going on in the world.  11 year olds understand murder and  prejudice
and evil and hatred.  They know that there are bad guys out  there. 
Those children did not go to school without an understanding  of
current events.  Perhaps Snape had less information than Sirius  and
James, but as soon as he got to school he would have heard it all.  
And talked about it with his friend, Lily. And known right from wrong.
To  absolve him of choosing evil for being a child is something I
won't  do. 
 
Julie:
We'll have to agree to disagree then. I don't think 11 year olds  are
mindless creatures, but neither do I think they are nearly as capable
of resisting the influence of family and peers as adults. They need
the guidance of adults to see all the angles, and to help them make
good decisions. In real life, when a child comes from a very bad
home, that guidance comes in the form of society, teachers,  ministers,
and the like. In the WW such help for children is nonexistent, and in
fact at Hogwarts the atmosphere of sorting children according to
their personalities and perhaps their own whims is actively working
*against* giving these children a real base of knowledge and just as
importantly, a MOTIVATION to choose right over wrong. 
 
Because, let's face it, we are talking about humans, and often they
need some payback to choose right over wrong, especially when it
is very much a case of right (reject the Slytherin ideology and be 
tormented and ostracized for it) versus easy (stick with your  friends,
your only dependable social network). 
 
And, yes, Snape had Lily as a good influence. One person.  One
person who he interacted with on a very part time basis as far  as
we can tell. There's no indication they went to each other's houses,
or spent time together anywhere but the playground when they had
an  opportunity to meet. And once they were  at Hogwarts, well, Lily
was in Gryffindor and Snape in Slytherin, two houses very opposed
to each other. We have no evidence again that Snape (OR Lily) tried
in any serious way to buck the system. They ate separately,  probably
studied separately, etc. For Snape to at the later date pick Lily  over
Slytherin doesn't mean he's suddenly re-sorted into Gryffindor and 
befriended by everyone there, but that he's ostracized by Slytherin,
though he still has to eat and sleep with them and protect himself, 
all while likely still hated by everyone who already hated him  (how
likely is it Sirius, and James--who probably was already attracted to
Lily himself--are going to welcome Snape with open arms? I don't
see it happening.)
 
Of course Lily's good influence did mean *something.* It was  Snape's
saving grace, his continuing affection for her even after she  rejected 
him. It was that which sent him to Dumbledore, which prompted him to
leave Voldemort and work for Dumbledore, which put him under the
influence of Dumbledore's values for some 19-odd years, which  led
to Snape adopting some of Dumbledore's principles, such as  saving
those he can save (regardless of whether he personally likes them or
not), and shifting his focus end the end to the good of the WW  and the
defeat of evil rather than merely saving one boy, even a  boy who just
happened to be Lily's son. 
 


Julie, earlier:
And while Sirius made a choice against his  family, at the age of
eleven I have to believe it was made based far more on  his personal
agenda--rejecting a family who perhaps has already shown a  marked
preference for Regulus based on whatever likenesses or  behaviors
parents can and do use to favor one child over another--than based  on
any general principles, i.e., how his family treated *him*  indicated
the value of "Purebloods"
rather than any general outlook they  espoused toward non-Purebloods.

Prep0strus:

I'm curious as to  where you got this assertion.  I don't care so much
that every opinion  has to be supported by a page citation, but I never
assumed that his family  innately treated him worse than his brother. 
The only reason I can think for  that to happen is because he rebelled
against their rather odious beliefs,  which is a mark in Sirius's
favor.  Also, considering `influence', no  one had more influence on
Sirius' life for his first 11 years, and yet he was  able to see past
that and make a different choice.  A lot can be said  for sitting next
to James on the train, but really, that's a 10 minute  conversation
being compared with 11 years of life.  There is something  in Sirius
that made him go against his family and against those  beliefs.  Maybe
his cousin, maybe his friend, maybe something inside of  him.  But to
attribute this overwhelming influence to James and to the  Slytherin
house in Snape's case  while ignoring the influence they took  from
other sources – the Black family, and Lily, is only showing part  of
the picture.  Each of these children was exposed to many ideas.   Some
chose one path, some another.  I don't know why Snape gets let off  the
hook for making a bad choice and Sirius gets no credit for making  a
good one.
    
Julie: 
Who said Sirius doesn't get any credit? I didn't. And my comment  about
Regulus I believe is based on a bit of canon, Sirius saying that his  parents
considered Regulus their "fair-haired" child or some such comment. I  can't
find the exact quote right now so I could be wrong. If so, I detract  it.
 
Still, it's obvious that Sirius did already have a sense of rebelliousness 
toward his family at age 11. We just don't know why. I think it is more  for
reasons of personal affront than for an overreaching general  principle,
though we are not likely to get the answer. It is notable though that  Sirius
said his favorite aunt was Andromeda, who was struck off the family  tree
when she married a Muggle-born. Sirius would have been a young child
at the time, and that also could have had personal ramifications for  him,
not to mention that Uncle Alphard was apparently a renegade from the
Black family ideology too. So Sirius was at least exposed to  opposing
views on the subject.
 
Again, I personally have never said nor do I believe that Sirius  shouldn't
get credit for choosing the right side of the Pureblood superiority  issue.
I simply think at 11 years old that choice reflected personal  experience
(hatred of his mother's endless tirades against Andromeda and  Alphard,
the way he was loved in comparison to his brother, or whatever) which
shaped his decision more than any yet set in  stone principles. And liking
James immediately may have simply been the last straw that pushed 
him over to Gryffindor and away from his family's house of  Slytherin.
 
I might add that I've always seen James, Sirius, and Snape as  children
and adolescents at Hogwarts at about the same level. The canon  moments
we've been privy to have shown James and Sirius as the bigger berks,  but
I have no doubt Snape could be their equal, especially as he got older  and
more tied to Slytherin House's ideology and loyalties to Voldemort. I  do
wish we'd been given something besides heresay that showed us how
and why James changed from an arrogant bully into a decent man, but
I don't dispute that it certainly happened. 
 
On a more personal level, I'm going to add a quote from canon that  very
strongly affected me. That doesn't mean it affected you or anyone  else,
because ultimately we each interact with the books and characters  from
our own perspectives, based on our own experiences. I have a degree
in child development, and experience with children, and I tend to  view
them as very vulnerable to their environment. They don't get to pick  who
their parents are, how they look, where they grow up, whether they  are
abused or whether they are loved. But all of that does go into  forming
their personal identities, and who they eventually become as people
(along with genetic predispositions, which can and do further  influence
those environmental factors). In the end we all have choices of  course,
but we do not all choose from the same position, not by a long shot.
 
This quote is from DH, The Prince's Tale, page 671: 
"...Harry, whose attention had been focused entirely on the two  beside
the window (Lily and Snape), saw his father: slight, black-haired  like
Snape, but with the indefinable air of having been well-cared for,  even
adored, which Snape so conspicuously lacked."
 
That line (following the previous glimpses into  Snape's childhood, with 
his fighting parents, his mismatched clothes, and his air of  desperation)
made my heart hurt. And I think it's telling that Harry recognized the 
difference too. Because he understood it, as he was also a boy who
had lacked any air of being well-cared for, or adored. 
 
This is probably why I have sympathy for Snape. Yes, James chose the
side of Good, and Snape the side of Evil, but really, they both made  the
*easy* choices. The ones they'd been groomed for from their  childhood.
Much as Ron choosing Good and Draco choosing Evil were easy choices
for them. For James and Ron, choosing the side of Good was  the side
of their family and friends. But Draco or Snape choosing the Good  side
would have been a repudiation of a huge part of their lives, families,  and
friends. For them it really would be as Dumbledore  said, "Choosing what
is right over what is easy," which is by definition a much more  difficult
choice, taking a great deal of courage and determination, especially
for children.
 
Yes, Sirius did make the harder choice. But it seems highly likely he
was exposed to a more diverse set of viewpoints within his divided 
family. Still, I give him plenty of credit for being courageous. That  has
never been in doubt, at least to me. Not particularly kind-hearted,  and
very stunted emotionally by his long stint in Azkaban (obviously!),  but
never lacking at all when it comes to courage, and loyalty to those  he
loved. 
 
Julie




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