Hermione's parents.

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 175288

> sistermagpie Wrote:
> 
> > Your book glosses over the free will
> > of other people 
> 
> I don't believe any concept in philosophy has caused more 
confusion or
> been more unproductive than that of free will; an idea so bad it's 
not
> even wrong.

Magpie:
Yeah, yeah. I concede it's a stupid concept. I shouldn't have used 
the words. I meant that your book glosses over the fact that maybe 
two adults' lives and memories meant something and maybe it might be 
right to not just take it away and give them another life because 
you think it's best for them. I don't think that's too complicated a 
philosophy. I imagine Hermione herself wouldn't stand for it being 
done to her, like if her parents paid some wizard to wipe her mind 
so that she would be safe. I seem to remember her making some vague 
noises about "student rights" when Umbridge was reading the mail for 
the safety of others.

Magpie: 
> > of creating a completely false binary,
> > There are many more than just those two

Eggplant: 
> How odd that despite the fact that there are "many more" things 
that
> Hermione could have done to protect her parents you fail to 
mention a
> single one. There is nothing false about that binary; you are just
> pretending that nobody will ever have to make difficult moral 
choices
> in life.

Magpie:
Bull. "Difficult moral choices" does not just mean "a character I 
like have to do something badass." (Though if anybody actually says 
it was bad one must rally to their defense to explain how it was the 
only thing poor dears could have done--look, Hermione's crying you 
heartless beast! Why don't you think about how painful it is to her 
that she had to take away her parents' identity? I'll bet you like 
Snape!) I think the choice should be difficult because it actually 
acknowledges the rights of other people. How about a plant the 
perfectly intelligent Grangers are in on? How about a Fidelius charm-
-you know, the kind of things they would have used if the Grangers 
were Wizards they respected so they naturally don't think to take 
their minds and memories away from them? 

Eggplant:
 If Hermione acted she knew it would lead to bad things, but
> if she didn't act it would lead to far worse things. Hermione did 
the
> logical and courageous thing! I just wish Hermione was my daughter
> looking after me. 

Magpie:
Well, no it wouldn't have led to worse things because there's no 
indication anything bad would have happened to the Grangers 
regardless--they didn't go after the Weasleys or search for the 
Grangers. We've seen memory charms broken through in canon. I didn't 
say that Hermione didn't do the logical thing (I guess it's 
courageous to do something so utterly devestating to another person, 
especially your parents--though luckily Hermione lives in a universe 
where she rarely gets bad consequences for those kinds of decisions 
she makes like she might if this were a real person). It's perfectly 
logical. She just doesn't consider the situation from the position 
of whether her parents would want to have their lives and daughter 
taken away from their memories--that doesn't seem to matter.

But hey, if you want a daughter who feels it's okay to zap you into 
a state of oblivion if she thinks it's best for you go right ahead. 
(Not that you'd know she was looking out for you--maybe she could 
transfigure you into a turtle for safety--they seem to lead pleasant 
lives.) I'll stick with the Wizard parents whose children, strangely 
enough, don't seem to ever consider doing that to them. 

Magpie:>  
> > as if it's either do what she did or she
> > watches her parents gets tortured to
> > death for information 

Eggplant:
> 
> Yep that's about it, sucks doesn't it. If Hermione had done 
nothing to
> protect her parents then when they suffered a hideous death as they
> certainly would have I can just hear the howls of protest from this
> group. Why didn't she do something? 

Magpie:
Well, no, actually that's not about it. That's just the limit of 
your imagination, apparently. I guess it's being used up imagining 
howls of protest from the group that totally would have happened if 
Hermione did any other thing and so somehow back her up. Had 
Hermione told her parents what was going on and they took 
precautions they were comfortable with and got killed (which there's 
zero reason to think they would given there's no indication 
anybody's searching for the Grangers at all in DH) that would have 
been their decision, not Hermione's fault. Adults can make their own 
choices and accept responsibility for the consequences.

Eggplant:
Why didn't she change their
> memories and move them to Australia? Poor Hermione (and Harry too) 
is
> dammed if she does and dammed if she doesn't. Ron and Snape on the
> other hand can do no wrong.  

Magpie:
Yes, poor Hermione! Poor Harry! The poor dears are victimized on all 
sides! Damned if they do and damned if they don't--and somewhere, 
Ron and Snape fans are tormenting them as well! Waaaaaaahhhh!

Magpie:
>  
> > If as a Muggle you will happily hand
> > over your free will

Eggplant:> 
> Hand over my what?!

Magpie:
Pardon me. Hand over all your memories and your identity and give 
someone else total control over what your life will be. Have fun 
with that.

Magpie:
> 
> > to Wizards because they know best
> > that's your choice.

Eggplant:> 
> Hermione's parents could not possibly make a informed decision in 
this
> matter because they don't know what's going on, and Hermione can't
> tell them for two reasons:
> 
> 1) She promised Dumbledore she wouldn't tell anyone.
> 
> 2) The more they know the more danger they are in. And after being
> tortured when they tell Voldemort that Harry knows about the 
Horcruxes
> and is trying to destroy them, the more danger every single person 
on
> planet Earth is in. 

Magpie:
They can't possibly make an informed decision why? Because they 
can't do magic and that makes them idiots? Even though every person 
reading these silly books can't do magic? How is it that Ron's 
parents are able to make the same decision? And why would they need 
to know information that would put them in more danger? Hermione 
doesn't have to tell them about the Horcruxes any more than Ron 
tells his parents about them. 

Magpie:> 
> > I find your law [Eggplant's Third Law of
> > Unequal Moral Responsibility] confusing 

Eggplant:
> 
> Talk to the Half Blood Prince, I'll bet he could explain it to you.

Magpie:
Is that another reference to how somehow any argument you have is 
won by people liking Snape?

-m