Whose flaws are bigger (was good and bad Slytherins)

[doliesl at yahoo.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 175300


Lanval:
Here's where we part ways though: where are all these pure-and-stay-
good lovable characters that *we* (I'll include myself here as a non-
Snape fan, since you appear to be operating from the view of a Snape 
fan, and the whole argument started with him) sing-song praise over? 
I can't think of any of the major characters who fits that 
description. Certainly not Sirius, Harry or Lupin, to mention just 
three whose fans' views regularly clash with that of Snape fans. 

D:
Don't ask me, I was using Prep0strus's term to respond him. According to him these are the 'pure-and-stay good' characters, meaning 'good' characters who started off good and stay on good side, meaning they didn't have the same character arc as Snape...well duh!?  That's my point about trying judge these characters as if they're all equal and have the same story arc and we're supposed to have same reaction hence we shall have a list of 'who're better people' in some moral judging contest that amounts to who we should like.

Lanval:
Here's a mystery for me. Why is it that, on the one hand, so many 
Snape fans have always claimed to love Snape for his complexity, 
his 'greyness', his ambiguousness, yet on the other hand insist that 
he's the Good Guy in almost every situation involving him? If one 
were to take every argument ever fought out here, and adopted the 
pro-Snape opinion as canon, he'd be counted among the most boring,  
good-guy-under-a-dirty-cloak, nerve-gratingly noble, tear-inducing 
sob-story cliche in literature. 
 
D:
Maybe they came off that way to you because you're intend to think the worst of the character of Snape, so if someone try to explain why Snape do certain things or didn't vilify him, they comes off as 'whitewash' in your eyes?  I think that's the case sometimes but then who am I kidding, even I as a fan I think some people went too far in 'whitewashing' (eye rolling at all the 'good teacher'
 argument).  But it's all even out because many of the supposed 'evilness' is overexaggerate by many haters too. The haters also don't want the grey, they only want black so they can vilify a much loved shady character in smug righteousness and tell off all those who liked him must be delusional and based on fanon...same old grasping at straws. Snape never  get any pass from some readers who intent to hate him and interpret the worst no what matter. Double standard goes both ways.

>>D:
>>It's the same  as  people saying why Harry is their 
>>absolute favorite character because Harry is the protagonist and 
>>it's all about him anyway.

Lanval:
Actually, it isn't quite the same, because the books *are* 
called "Harry Potter and...". Snape may be a more prominent 
character than James, but certainly takes a backseat when
 it comes 
to appearance to Ron or Hermione. 

D:
No it's the same for me. The characters that matters more to readers' heart are usually the ones who have an actual prominent role and revelations that strike an emotional core.  Prep0strus kept asking and insisting why there're Snape fans who'd defend him till earth's end while it's the not the same for James. The root of that problem is that he saw them as "equal" in roles exposure and what their character arc lies.  The backseat thing isn't my point, why do you suddenly want to rank some list? It's just a comparison how most of us readers care for Harry by default because he's the voice of the book. And a lot of readers would care more about a fascinating character whose arc matters in 7 books versus a mere background name whose existence is to inform readers about other characters. But the thing is, Snape is quite an one of a kind special character within the series in  my opinion (and before you go off making a list, yes there're plenty others too,
 as in Snape is as irreplaceable as Dumbledore). So he's
 always the 'exception' and the 'controversial' that's why I think it's a misconception if you try to hold up James/Sirius/Lupin/Hagrid/Madam Pomprey/Draco/Slughorn...etc.'s role against Snape's. 


Lanval:
Well, since you brought it up...
You see, that breeze, it does blow both ways. I agree 
that I've seen my share of "how dare you like the Bad Guys, don't 
you know that you're supposed to hate them, what are you, BAD?"
But. I've seen as much condescension from the Snape(insert 
Draco/Slytherin/Random Designated Bad Guy) fandom, as in, "I LOVE 
the Bad Guys -- what an interesting, deep, intellectual reader I 
must be! what, you like the guys JKR 'told' you to like? Oh dear...I 
suppose so do the ten-year-olds..."

D:
No the problem you and many don't see is..a lot of Snape fans DON'T see nor appreciate him as among one of many Slytherin/baddies/Random Designated Bad Guy. You  might automatically "oh so you must try to whitewash him as some nice white
 hat." Of course it isn't that either. That's why for me and for many Snape is a truly one of a kind character in the series, there's no other characters that setup the same as him and function like him thruout seven books ('gift of a character' I agree). That's why it's absurd to pit him against _insert lovable, pure-and-staygood or shady minor Slytherin character_ . Unlike you, I never see him in the same league as Slughorn, even Draco and some Random Designated Bad Guy. I don't like any of the LV-align or 'bad" characters like Umbridge and Greyback. I don't like nor identify with Slytherins (because there isn't any really interesting characters coming from that house, especailly the children's generation). I think the puzzle came in because some of you  think of Snape only  as one among many of the random baddies and don't distinguish the uniqueness of his role, hence the 'puzzle' of his appeal. I always believed he's DDM and on the 'good' side all
 along.

(btw no I don't have much problem with JKR portrayal of Molly's AK, Harry's torture curse, Slytherin house...and I like DH and LOVE Snape's conclusion).

Lanval:
The heart of the problem? again, not speaking for anyone else here, 
but I freely admit that while I dislike Snape it does irk me *more* 
to see him so often elevated into something he is NOT. Usually at 
the expense of whoever shares the scene with him. Exhibit A: Harry's 
first Potions Class.
 
D:
It irks me when 'haters' dismissed Snape into something he's NOT, also. It goes both ways. The degree of savage vindictiveness of wanting Snape to be the worst evil and how Harry was oh-so-right about him all along etc.  etc. (oh so crow-eating!)

I understand the frustration of seeing some Snape fans demonizing the 'likable' pure-and-stay-good characters. I find those irksome too and rolling my eyes and hissing 'enough~ geez' in my  mouth. But don't try to pretend that it doesn't go both ways.  And the whole "James/Sirius/Lupin are way better people in sum than Snape to me" won't cut it and only comes off  desperate to me (why does that matter).


Lanval:
No, one does not find James very often as the subject of essays, 
academical works, etc. One finds him however quite often as the 
subjects of LiveJournal posts along the lines of "I hate James
 
Potter with the fire of a thousand suns!!!")

'Splain that one to me, somebody. If the bloke ain't interesting 
enough to be considered a Worthy Character to Like, surely he can't 
qualify for this kind of hatred either?

D:
Really? Where? You're giving characters like James way too much credit. No way the dislikes toward him is anywhere near the intensity, seriousness and amount of the venom toward BIG character like Hermione, Ginny, Harry, Snape, Dumbledore...etc. I don't think people really 'care' about James when they mouth off  "James sucks...gosh he's so annoying". He isn't one to get work up about in my opinion.


D:
> And yeah in a way characters' redemption (especially at the 
finale) do gain a lot of readers' forgiveness and endearment, that's 
why it's err...called 'redemption', especially ones involving love 
and sacrifices and death (ie Sydney Carton). Not working for you and 
some others obviously, but also working for a lot and a lot of 
readers. At least from the more 'general' discussion board I've 
seen, seems like there're lots of 'converts' for Snape *yay*

Lanval:
Yes, love and sacrifice, redemption, death. Harry? Sirius? Lupin? 
Lily? Dumbledore? It would be a mistake, I believe, to reserve these themes for one 
character in HP only. 

D:
We were
 talking Snape and his own redemptive role, where did Harry and Sirius and Lupin and Dumbledore come from?   Did they have the same former DE background/nasty demeaner/tragic hero/redemptive arc?  No right? Like I said above Snape was a one-of-a-kind character in this series, it's combination of everything that made me like him best. So yeah in a way that there're certain themes that are pretty much for this one character only. Just like Dumbledore has his own, Harry has his own (and for me Sirius has his and ended them in book 5).  Why must we include a check list of how Harry/Sirius/Lupin/50 other characters did this good or that good when the the subject is about Snape alone and his redemption and his very unique (to the series) appeal to us fans? This is a something I see keep popping up.


Lanval:
True. But also: Good Guy disguised as Bad then Redeemed =/= Epitome 
of Character Worthy of Worship. 

D:
And who said they never see fictional characters as moral judging contest? 
Why would one ever want to "worship" someone fictional, especially in Harry Potter series!?

 Good Guy disguised as Bad then Redeemed = usually awesome character in my opinion. 

Lanval:
And just to add to Prep0strus' assessment of the sum of Snape's 
flaws being greater than those of Sirius, James, Remus (no, Peter 
does not count):

D:
Oh so fanon rules only applied when it regards Marauders -- the Marauder only consisted of 3 people cliche, and how Peter never existed so the James and Sirius were never flawed with their questionable inclusion. Sore misjudgement omitted and erased for convenience. 

Snape's flaws were bigger but his roles are also bigger than all three combine, and his revelation are more compelling and his roles makes a more memorable and greater character overall for me in my opinion.

D.







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