Snape: Childhood, Ambiguity, Love Life, and Afterlife (was: Sorting and Snape)

[lanval1015]

No: HPFGUIDX 175480

Judy: 
> First Topic: Childhood 
> 
> Concerning the oft-cited quote about Snape looking at 
> Lily "greedily," I will confess that this creeped me out at first, 
> especially since I am very sensitive to any suggestion of sexual 
> violence.  However, on second reading, I no longer saw this as 
having 
> anything to do with sexual stalking. Snape is only supposed to be 
> about nine or ten years old here, which is awfully young for 
> stalking, even if one is a precocious little Dark-Wizard-To-Be. I 
now 
> agree with the posters who say that Snape was "greedy" for 
friendship 
> with another magical child, since he was isolated in a Muggle 
> community. To support this view, let me point out that both of 
times 
> the term "greedy" is used, Snape is watching or discussing Lily do 
> magic. The first time he looks at her "greedily," she is swinging 
> very high, about to go leaping magically off.  (Which is something 
> she has done before, according to Petunia.) The second time that 
he 
> watches her greedily, "as he had done on the playground," is just 
> after he tells her that she is highly magical.
> 

Lanval:
Far be it from me to belittle Snape's feelings for Lily as merely 
creepy in a sexual way (as I've said before, I find him for the 
*most* part heartwrenchingly adorable in those early memories. The 
way he flaps around like a little bat, his blushing, his eagerness 
and the way he just can't seem to help Messing Things Up...), 
however, there is a reason, IMO, that the author uses the 
words "with undisguised greed" and "greedily". Instead of, 
say, "with great longing", or "delightedly".

No, it's "greed" she chose, twice. The swing scene? Snape knows 
magic is about to happen; he's watched her do this trick before. But 
she's not sitting demurely and making earthworms dance, or hunched 
over a desk mixing potions. She's swinging, soaring through the air, 
hair flying everywhere. It's a beautiful and attractive picture, 
isn't it?

Here's the second scene:

DH, Bloomsbury Ed. p.535:

 'Does it make a difference, being Muggle-born?'
 Snape hesitated. His black eyes, eager in the greenish gloom, moved 
over the pale face, the dark red hair.
 'No,' he said. 'It doesn't make any difference.'
 'Good,' said Lily, relaxing: it was clear she had been worrying.
 'You've got loads of magic,' said Snape. 'I saw that. All the time 
I was watching you...'
 His voice trailed away; she was not listening, but had stretched 
out on the leafy ground and was looking up at the canopy of leaves 
overhead. He watched her as greedily as he had watched her in the 
playground.

End of quote.

His 'eager' eyes roaming over her pale face and red hair? Him 
watching her 'greedily' as she lies stretched out on the ground?

IMO, there's no denying the sexual overtones, and the author meant 
for them not to be overlooked. Yes, I know, he's nine or ten, but 
kids that age have crushes and fall in love, even if they're not 
aware of *why* they're feeling this way. I'm not suggesting he's 
imagining her without her clothes here, or anything as overt. But it 
is her beauty that gets to him. Not just the magical powers.

Besides, they already *were* friends in this scene, so the 
explanation that he longed to have a magical friend doesn't really 
work here anymore.
 



Judy:
> About the branch hitting Petunia, 
> Dana said:
> > To me Snape did make the branch break on purpose because he 
wanted 
> > to punish Petunia for intruding on Lily and him and insulting 
him. 
> > It does show that Snape at an early age had a mean streak to him 
> > but he did not use his ability to go around and bully other kids 
> > into submission. Petunia made him angry and his responds was 
> > violent...
> >
> >Pg 536 DH UKed.
> >T
> > 'Did you make that happen?'
> > 'No.' He (Snape) looked both defiant and scared.
> > 'You did!' She was backing away from him. 'You did!' You hurt 
her!"
> > 'No – no, I didn't!'
> > But the lie did not convince Lily: after on last burning look 
she 
> > ran from the little thicket, off after her sister, and 
> > Snape looked miserable and confused

> 
> This tells us that, yes, Snape's magic caused the branch to break, 
> but I don't think we can tell from this whether the branch 
breaking 
> was deliberate or accidental. Lily asks whether Snape *caused* the 
> branch to break, and the text states (or at least very clearly 
> implies) that Snape is lying when he says that he didn't cause 
it.  
> But, Lily never asks him if he broke the branch *intentionally.*  
So, 
> the "lie" was that he didn't cause the break at all, rather than 
that 
> he didn't do it intentionally. 
> 

Lanval:
I think it would be a huge stretch to ask for a young child in this 
situation to choose the legally correct way of asking what happened. 
When Lily asks, "Did you make that happen?", she means :"Did you  
make that branch fall down to hurt my sister?" She's clearly upset, 
no? I see no evidence that she ever considers it 'just happened by 
accident', and that he did not mean to hurt Petunia. JMO, of course.

Judy:
> I would definitely agree with that claim that Snape has a bad 
temper, 
> and that watching his father quite likely made him think that 
getting 
> angry was acceptable. However, here we just have no way to know if 
> what happened was accidental, like some of Harry's wandless magic, 
or 
> intentional, like what Tom Riddle did. Tom Riddle did very cruel 
> magic intentionally even as a young, wandless child, but that 
doesn't 
> mean that as child Snape ever did, or even was able to. I like 
Snape 
> a lot, and I think canon states that he was an extremely powerful 
> wizard, but he wasn't in Voldemort's class magically.
> 

Lanval:
I would never compare young Severus to young Tom; there's no cruelty 
evident anywhere in Severus at that age. (That came later *eg*).

And you're right, it was quite likely a gut reaction, something he 
couldn't control. He certainly has a problem with controlling his 
temper, even as an adult. So, I think this is inconclusive. He may 
have consciously wanted to hurt Petunia and saw the branch as the 
closest available weapon, or it was accidental, or a mix of both. We 
all have angry reactions from time to time where we act without 
thinking. I'd say that since he has no wand, and has not been 
formally trained, it was unconsciously done. Perhaps the more 
powerful the wizard, the more disastrous these uncontrolled bursts 
of wandless magic? Snape was quite gifted, IMO.

May I just add that if we'd witnessed young James or Sirius dropping 
a branch on a Muggle child, my fingertips would be worn to the bone 
by now from typing responses to "See? See how bad he is? He might 
have KILLED her!"  *veg*


Judy:
> While we are talking about Snape, Lily, and Petunia, let me say 
that 
> I don't read Snape as blaming himself for how much Petunia hated 
> magic.  I think it would have been very hard on Petunia to see 
Lily 
> coming and going from Hogwarts each year, even if she had known 
> nothing at all about magic before Lily left. On the other hand, 
the 
> fact that Petunia's first exposure to the magical world was with 
> Snape gives me some more sympathy for her dislike of magic 
(although 
> it doesn't excuse her being awful to Harry.) Snapefan though I am, 
he 
> certainly does fit a very negative stereotype of magic users, 
> bubbling cauldron full of "eye of newt, toe of frog" and all. 
> 
> 
Lanval:
I myself always found that aspect pretty fascinating, even as a 
child. I used to hide under the bushes in our garden, mixing my 
own 'magical' potions. No living creatures were ever harmed in those 
experiments, I must add. 

Now, about Petunia and Lily. I don't think it took Snape to drive 
the wedge between the sisters, he just helped (quite happily and 
consciously, IMO). If Lily had never met him, she would have still 
received the letter, Petunia would have still been uneasy with the 
magic thing, she would have still been separated from a sister she 
loved, and she would have still become resentful and envious of 
Lily. Who was not only the 'pretty one', compared to Petunia's 
plainer appearance, but also turned out to be extremely special, AND 
got to go to some very special school. It would have taken a saint 
to bear all this with a shrug and a smile, and Tuney is no saint. 
Just a little girl who likes order, and hates *sticking out* in any 
way, but who also already shows a good deal of spite and 
narrowmindedness.

That letter she wrote to DD? Talk about heartbreaking. I almost 
cried.

Yeah, Snape probably did confirm every worry Petunia had ever had 
when she saw Lily do magic. Weird little freaks, that's who her 
sister was going to associate with in the future. But not weird 
enough for Petunia to not desperately want to be part of it.



> 
> Second Topic: Ambiguity

> I see your point, houyhnhnm, but I think that the Harry Potter 
> characters (especially Snape) are a special case.  Readers have 
spent 
> 10 years and 4000 pages being given all sorts of hints about 
Snape's 
> true character and motivations, and this topic has inspired tens 
of 
> thousands of posts on this list alone.  With that big of a build-
up, 
> people are going to look for resolution in the final book. 
> 
> It's surprising to me that JKR left Snape as ambiguous as she 
did.  I 
> was expecting something much clearer as to his motivations.  
Instead, 
> we're left debating questions like:  "Was Snape friends with 
> Dumbledore?" and "Did he care about saving the world from 
Voldemort, 
> or was he just doing penance for Lily's sake?"  Amazingly, we 
don't 
> even get a statement, either way, as to whether Snape cared about 
> revenge on Voldemort. 
> 
> Did JKR intend to leave Snape so ambiguous?  You know, I'm not at 
all 
> sure that she did.  She's given some conflicting quotes in the 
post-
> DH interviews.  She says that she doesn't see Snape as a hero, and 
> then a few days later, she says that she does see him as a hero.  
I 
> think maybe she's not sure what to make of him herself. 
> 


Lanval:
It probably won't come as a surprise to you that I love it. I 
absolutely adore the fact that she left so many things open, and I'm 
more grateful than I can say that she did not give us a 
sappy "Forgive me, Harry!" -- "Oh, Severus, how could I ever have 
doubted you!" scene. 

His death? I found it fitting in the extreme.

Snape - Ambiguity. It's what makes him great. A true tragic 
character, brought down by his own flaws.

I think JKR knows quite well what to make of him, but just as our 
opinions about people we live with often fluctuate with our moods, 
or circumstances, it could be the same for her and her characters, 
no? If you live with them for so long, they do become real in a way. 
So I see it as no big deal that she may look upon Sev more 
forgivingly on some days than on others. 


Judy: 
> 
> Third Topic: Love Life
> 
> 
> Like some others here, I found this discussion in the middle of 
the 
> battle to be a bit amusing, or at least odd.  "We interrupt this 
war 
> to bring you a special bulletin: Snape Loved Lily!" 
> 
> I imagined the conversation between Snape and Voldemort exactly as 
> Allie imagined it, complete with it being Snape's biggest 
challenge 
> at Occlumency.  I figured it took place at the end of GoF. 
> 
> Oh, and the line where Voldemort said, "but when she had gone, he 
> agreed that there were other women, and of purer blood, worthier 
of 
> him"?  I read that and thought, "Hey!  Now we're going to get all 
> these fanfics where Snape tries to convince Voldemort that he's 
over 
> Lily by sleeping around."  (Not that I see canon as is necessarily 
> implying this, just that the line will trigger fics.) 
> 

Lanval:
Heh. Me too. Just like his scene with Narcissa in HBP. 



> 
Judy:
> Forth Topic: Afterlife
> 
> Ok, one more topic for this post.
> 
> Regarding what happened to Snape in the afterlife,
> lizzyben04 said:
> > it's to JKR's credit that she created a character so vivid that I
> > actually worried about his immortal soul. I even read fan-fic to
> > find a happy ending!
> 
> Me, too, except rather than looking for fanfic, I found it easier 
to 
> just imagine my own happy ending. I was really broken up by Snape 
> dying while looking into Harry's eyes, so I thought of Snape 
looking 
> into Harry's green, almond-shaped eyes, everything going black for 
a 
> moment, and then Snape finding himself in the afterlife, looking 
into 
> Lily's eyes and finally being forgiven and accepted by her. (No, 
they 
> can't get married since she has James, but then, I don't really 
> expect that there's marriage, child-bearing or sex in the 
afterlife --
>  not because sex is evil, but because sex and child-bearing seem 
to 
> me to be very much part of the *physical* world.) 
> 


Lanval:
Yes, that's a nice thought, Lily welcoming Snape after he dies. But 
I hope that after thanking him for protecting her son, she also 
whacks him over the head for being so mean to him. And then (after 
Snape has spent some time in some purgatory-ish corner thinking over 
his many sins) they can go floating off into the Great Beyond.

Where Snape, James, Sirius,  Remus and Peter can play 'Who's afraid 
of the Big Bad Werewolf' together, and then all fall over laughing.

Eh, that's just how I like to imagine it in one of my sillier 
moments.


Lanval, who can't abide adult Snape and loves little Severus, yet 
can't overlook the warning signs present even at that young age.