DH and PS/SS

[Annemehr]

No: HPFGUIDX 175496

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" <rdoliver30 at ...> 
wrote:
>
> Okay, folks.  We once had a whole set of theories about how the 
> Potterverse existed in a grand cycle with some books mirroring 
other 
> books.  I believe it was set off by JKR's comment about GOF being 
> the "hinge" of the series.  In this set of ideas, everything was 
> supposed to come round to the beginning, once again.
> 

Annemehr:
Talisman is the only one I know of who wrote such theories about that 
*particular* patterning (not that I can be sure I haven't missed 
something, of course).

The original such, she ended up calling "Goblet Theory" -- events are 
mirrored in pairs of opposites in the books thusly: 1/7, 2/6, 3/5, 
*and* furthermore, each mirrored pair is represented by a skewed, or 
parodied, version in GoF.  Unfortunately, though the search function 
has shown me a few oblique references to it, I can't find anywhere 
where she really expounds on it.

Of course, right before DH, she did post a set of theories that grew 
out of the original Goblet idea: the Dark Mirror posts, wherein the 
DADA profs of books 1, 2, and 3 are variously reflected by Harry, DD, 
and the DADA profs of books 5, 6, and 7:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/163728
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/172184
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/172210

****************************************************************
By the way, as I read DH, I was pleased to see that Snape does indeed 
represent the DADA here. Get it?  He may not be the Defense Against 
the Dark Arts Teacher (cos there isn't one of those), but he most 
certainly *is* the defense against the Dark Arts Teacher (one Amycus 
Carrow). And he certainly mirrors Quirrell:

Quirrell pretended to work for DD, but was really LV's man;
Snape pretended to work for LV, but was really DD's man.

Quirrell worked to kill Harry, but was ultimately unsuccessful;
Snape worked to save Harry, and was ultimately successful.

Harry was supportive of Quirrell until he found out he was an enemy;
Harry had enmity for Snape until he found out he had been supporting 
him.

LV told Harry, via Quirrell's head, to save himself ("Better save 
your own life and join me...");
DD told Harry, via Snape's head (the memories), to go to his death.

Quirrell died when his master's plan was thwarted, and LV cared not;
Snape died though his master's plan was successful, and DD expressed 
regret (okay, a pitiful sort of regret, when he had done NOTHING to 
warn Snape of the danger he was in, but there you are).
*****************************************************************

I see that your examples involve things that are the *same* between 1 
and 7, whereas Talisman's theory involves mirrored symmetry.  I'll 
just point out that symmetry involves two main qualities, 1)a 
fundamental *sameness* between the two parts, but 2)they are reversed 
images of each other.  A mirror image looks just like you, except for 
the one detail that right and left are reversed.  In some of my 
comments on your examples, I note where I see mirror-images.

Lupinlore:
> I don't believe in the grand conception of these theories -- i.e. 
> that the series is some kind of fantastic palindrome where themes 
and 
> tropes are repeated in reverse order on either side of GOF.

Annemehr:
I'm not up for a thorough analysis of this now, but there's plenty of 
time, if I ever feel like it. ;)  Meanwhile, the Dark Mirror posts 
themselves are good series-wide examples, and here's another for you:

In 3, Sirius tries to protect Harry, but then Harry comes to Sirius's 
rescue: Sirius lives.
In 5, Harry tries to protect Sirius, but then Sirius comes to Harry's 
rescue: Sirius dies.
(Skewed/parody version in 4: each is worried for the other's safety 
throughout, but neither one can really *do* anything for the other.)

Lupinlore:
  Still, 
> if we look just at the two extreme ENDS of the series, DH and 
PS/SS, 
> I think there might be something to the idea of a circle.  In other 
> words, the two books, while different in many, many ways, had a 
> striking number of fundamentals in common:
<snip>

> 3) Both books turn on Harry coming into possession of an extremely 
> powerful magical tool he has no desire, ultimately, to use.
> 

Annemehr:
You can make this one stronger: in both, the purpose of the powerful 
magical tools is to defeat Death.  In both, Dumbledore gave Harry the 
information he needed to find the objects.  The mirror-symmetry: in 
PS/SS Harry tried to get the object before LV could; in DH Harry 
decided not to do so. 

(The corresponding magical object that Goblet Theory would posit for 
book 4 would be, in my opinion, the Goblet of Fire itself, which LV, 
instead of DD, gave Harry the information to find, through his agent 
Crouch!Moody.  Another part of the "skew" involved is that the Goblet 
had led many contestants *to* their deaths -- as it was meant to do 
for Harry.)

Lupinlore:
> 4) Both books feature important objects protected at Gringott's.
> 

Annemehr:
Yep.  And Gringott's was *burgled* for each of them -- vaults 
actually broken into, and the perps escaping -- but one foray was a 
mission for LV and was thwarted, while the other was a mission for DD 
and was successful (mirror image).  The GoF parody: Harry is 
*suspected* of burgling Snape's private stores when in fact he did 
not.

Lupinlore:
<snip>
> 6)  Both books play on the rivalries among and between houses.  
Both 
> end with the expulsion of Slytherin House -- figuratively in PS/SS, 
> literally -- if temporarily -- in DH.
>

Annemehr:
I join the ranks of people who think you nailed it here -- and in the 
further analysis at the end of your post (snipped).
 
Lupinlore:
> 7) In both books, Neville ends up showing depths of bravery that
> save the day in the end (with points in PS/SS, literally in DH).

Annemehr:
Again, yep, with the mirror images being in who he stands up *to* -- 
his friends in 1, and his enemy in 7.  I think the corresponding GoF 
image is his bravery in approaching (two of) his friends to get a 
date for the Yule Ball.

And I'll add another biggie, in three parts:
8)(a)~In PS, LV is defeated by Lily's sacrificial death which has 
protective power;
~In DH, LV is defeated by Harry's sacrificial near-death which has 
protective power.  I am one who forecast, long ago, that Harry would 
end the series by echoing Lily's sacrifice -- I just never thought LV 
would fall for the *exact same* magical mechanism a second time.  To 
quote CoSMovie!Ron, how thick could you get?
~In GoF, the already-dead return (in a manner of speaking) to save 
Harry in the graveyard

8)(b)In both books, LV fires an AK which moves a bit of his own soul -
- an unintentional Hx -- into or out of Harry (the mirror images). 
The book 4 skewed image is where LV intentionally takes a bit of 
Harry's blood into himself (and we see this blood is *like* a Hx for 
Harry as it keeps him from actually dying from the AK).

8)(c)Furthermore, in both books Harry gains or loses the ability to 
speak Parseltongue when the bit of LV goes into or out of Harry 
(mirror images).  The book 4 skewed image is Dudley growing a *snaky 
tongue* when a bit of toffee goes into him (and his mother tries 
heroically to protect him, to boot).  This is actually one of the 
first examples Talisman gave me, on another list, years ago before 
HBP was published, so it's cool to see it bear out in 7 so perfectly.

And, another!
9)In 1, Harry saves a dragon by flying it (via Charlie's friends' 
brooms) out of Scotland to a dragon reserve;
In 7, a dragon saves Harry by flying him to Scotland;
In 4, Harry battles a dragon imported into Scotland for the purpose.

Lupinlore: 
> I don't know how much of this was conscious on JKR's part.  If I 
had 
> to guess at any of it being conscious, I would say it's the parts 
> about Neville, Snape, and Slytherin.


I feel quite sure it was conscious -- there's just too much of it to 
be otherwise.

Annemehr