"Bad Snapers," Karma, and the End of Snape (was Re: Of Sorting and Snape)

[hickengruendler]

No: HPFGUIDX 175497

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" 
<dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> > Hickengruendler:
> > 
> > I'm not sure. I found some of the "good guys" deaths pretty 
ironic as 
> > well, most notably Sirius'. He was killed by a family member on 
> > Ministry of Magic grounds, after all. By a member of the same 
family 
> > he seeked to escape and at the very place, where the people 
lived, 
> > who had put a death penalty on his head a few years ago. 
Similarly, 
> > Dobby being mortally wounded in Malfoy Manor of all places is 
darkly 
> > ironic, even though he lived long enough to die outside Shall 
> > Cottage. I also found it ironic, that Fred Weasley died, when 
> > something blew up, given that blowing up things was about his 
> > favourite hobby. I do have to admit, though, that I don't know 
how 
> > much of it is intended by JKR and how much is simply my reading 
of 
> > it. The only two deaths, where I'm absolutely sure, the irony is 
> > there on purpose, are Sirius and Snape's.
> >
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Oh yes, definitely - agreed about deaths of good guys being ironic 
as 
> well, some of them.
> 
> I am wondering about Dobby now actually. Do you think his death in 
> Malfoy manor symbolises that house elves cannot leave the clutches 
of 
> the owners yet after all?

Hickengruendler:

I see Dobby's death in a row with some other characters (for example 
Sirius and Snape, but also Dumbledore, if we count him being cursed 
by the ring as the cause for him dying), who tried to leave a 
terrible past behind them, but whose past finally caught up with 
them. Of course there are some differences; Snape for example is to a 
great deal responsible for his bad past, while Dobby isn't at all. 
But it's the same theme. The characters died trying to face the 
demons of their past. Dobby surely wasn't happy to return to Malfoy 
Manor, but he did so willingly trying to safe Harry. Snape returned 
to his Death Eater "job" as a spy, even though he clearly wasn't 
happy about it either and even though he could have tried to run away 
like Karkaroff. Sirius went to the ministry trying to save Harry, and 
even though he knew, that there would be an extra danger for him at 
that place, since was a supposed criminal on the run. All of these 
decisions add IMO some grace for their deaths, which otherwise where 
cruel and almost random (as dead is in real life, as well). 
Dumbledore's death was in this regard even the least graceful of them 
all, since he got cursed, because he gave in to his weakness, but his 
motive was that strong, seeing the people he loved and lost again and 
wanting to apologize, that it is easily understandable. Harry would 
have been in big danger to make the same mistake here. 

Alla:
 
> That is why I do think that JKR made Snape life and death ambigious 
> till the very end in essense that we can still come up with so many 
> different interpretations.
> 
> I would not be sure if she intended villain or hero death for him. 
> maybe both?

Hickengruendler:

I don't think it has to be either. I mean, Cedric Diggory, for 
example, did not die a heroe's death, but definitely not a villain's 
death, either. He was a victim. Maybe Snape, in a completely 
different way, was in the end just a victim as well. I definitely 
don't think it was a villain's death, mainly because there was no 
satisfaction from any character. Harry, who at this time still 
detested Snape, was so shocked by it, that he showed himself to 
Snape, (which led to Snape fulfilling Dumbledore's final task). And 
judging by Sherry's post, at least some readers, who hated Snape 
prior to this, shared Harry's shock as well. There's a big difference 
between this scene and the recations after for example Bellatrix and 
Voldmeort's deaths from the other characters. I'm not sure, if it was 
a heroe's death, but I would say it was. I mean, in his way he died 
fulfilling his job in the fight against Voldemort the way Sirius, 
Lupin or Fred did, and as mentioned above, he managed to fulfill the 
last task given to , even if it was thanks to Harry. So, yes, I think 
it was pretty heroic IMO, even though the manner was certainly nasty, 
but so is ending up having a knife in your back, like Dobby did, 
which doesn't make Dobby's death less heroic. I think the nastiness 
was simply to show how horrid Voldemort can be even to those he 
considered his allies. I personally found Snape's Death scene pretty 
powerful, particularly in contrast with him being allowed to sit to 
the right of Voldemort in the first chapter.