Of Sorting and Snape

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 175527

Magpie:
> Actually, just to clarify, I wasn't asking why Lily didn't go into 
> Slytherin. I was saying I didn't see why any kid should have to 
> follow his friend into any house. If Snape had wanted to be in 
> Ravenclaw, and after Lily got Sorted into Gryffindor he was still 
> Sorted into Ravenclaw (and I don't think it's just as simple as 
> requesting a house a friend is in--I think you do go in the house 
> you're suited to beyond that as well) I can't see why that would be 
> a problem. Students don't have to be in the same house to be 
> friends--unless you're in Slytherin, because that throws some 
> doubts on the kind of friend you'll probably be imo. (Not because 
> the Hat does something to you, but because it says something about 
> you by your choosing/being chosen by Slytherin.)
<snip>

Dana:
I know and I had started to write a reply to the original post in 
which you mentioned this but it still sits in my concept box and 
starts to take a book sized form.  

I was not saying that Snape *should* have followed Lily by having 
himself been sorted into Gryffindor but just that the memories give 
me the feeling that Snape regretted not having done so and not 
because he should not have chosen to be a Slytherin but because he 
wanted to be with his friend. We see in the memory itself that he 
wanted Lily to be sorted into the same house he wanted to be in. He 
wanted it both but only could have either one. 
To me it says that he regretted not following his heart and nothing 
about him feeling that he would have been a better person if he would 
have been sorted into Gryffindor as a house. 

And yes, I agree with you that they did not have to be in the same 
house to remain friends and I was not actually trying to imply that 
they couldn't because they did. But that doesn't mean that he did not 
regret not chosing to follow his heart or that it could not be an 
indication that at that specific point in time his desire to be in 
Slytherin was bigger then his desire to be in the same house as Lily. 

The entire sorting and the way it is presented, does not give me the 
feeling that the hat is the deciding factor in where you end up or 
that it really says anything about who you are or who you will 
become. Some kids will not have a specific preference and the hat 
will make a decision for them but for what is shown to us (or just 
me), those with a strong preference are indeed sorted into the house 
they prefer. And technically the hat can never be wrong because all 
kids posses all qualities and being in a specific house is no 
guarantee that the quality the house represents will be the most 
dominant talent. 

If you look at Percy for instance then his dominant quality would 
make him more fitting for Slytherin house but he comes from a 
Gryffindor background and it seems to have played a far more dominant 
part of why he is sorted into Gryffindor then his personality 
actually represents.  Another example is Hermione who to me does not 
specifically represent a Gryffindor personality as a dominant trait. 
She is pretty much all houses combined but with a predominant 
Ravenclaw outline. Remus is more Hufflepuff at the core as is Arthur 
but both were sorted into Gryffindor. 

Personally I do not look much at the house system to define a 
character's personality in my own mind and never thought about it 
specifically within this context until it was brought up in various 
posts. 

I have thought a lot about your posts and I do agree that the 
author's personal preferences to sort her good guys into Gryffindor 
while her bad guys are designated to Slytherin, is a little too 
obvious for comfort but I also see the need to have people shoved 
together out of a logistical need more then JKR really defining all 
her good characters as Gryffindor. To me the only characters she 
truly defined (as in her personal preference) as purely good are the 
trio, Hagrid, DD, Lily, Molly, Arthur and to some extent Ginny to 
function as the surrogate Lily.  

So I am trying to understand why she made this specific distinction 
within the houses, besides giving Harry an opponent within the 
confined space of the school territory and besides her personal 
preferences. 
I think personally that it has more to do with her wanting to set out 
the difference between prejudice/ intolerance and acceptance/ 
tolerance and defined the dominant houses, portrait within the story, 
accordingly. So Gryffindor represents tolerance where Slytherin 
represents prejudice (if not outright racism in some cases). But this 
is not by definition something that can't be interchangeable or that 
Gryffindors can't display intolerance or that Slytherin is not able 
to display tolerance within its boundaries. 

In both cases the human traits/ qualities these houses represent are 
used to support the opposite sides of this spectrum and to me the bad 
side of Slytherin does not so much lie within the individual quality 
of the kids sorted into this house. It is actually the adaptation of 
this house by people supporting a specific indoctrination that gives 
the house its bad name and what keeps it separated from the rest.  

If you both for instance look at Draco and Snape then before they 
were sorted already displayed susceptibility to prejudice views while 
the reasons for their views are in my opinion entirely different and 
so are in my opinion the reasons for wanting to be sorted into 
Slytherin. Where Draco is proud to follow family tradition and is a 
big supporter of his family's viewpoints, Snape just wants to be in 
the house because it is more open-minded to support his personal 
ambitions (well according to my personal interpretation of course). 
I have not seen any supporting canon that Snape's mother was in 
Slytherin so I do not agree that Snape just wanted to be in Slytherin 
house because his mother was in Slytherin. 

In the other post you mentioned that the Slytherin kids are expected 
(or a similar wording) to just rise above what gets them sorted into 
Slytherin house in the first place but I look at it differently. I 
think the only thing they should rise above is the prejudice 
viewpoints this house has been made to support or not let themselves 
be swept up by it.  

This also makes me think that the hat is not defining these kids in 
themselves by definition but that a lot of kids already had a bad 
start because of their family backgrounds. I find it interesting that 
many only seem to want to consider poverty and neglect as a disabling 
background while Draco's future was far more set in stone then for 
instance Snape's future was. Ron's family background and his position 
within his large family had a far bigger influence on his behavior 
then Harry being neglected by the Dursleys. And if I remember 
correctly it seems that this was DD's message both at the end of OotP 
when he tried to explain to Harry that he was better off because he 
had not been pampered like a little prince. In HBP DD points out to 
the Dursleys that the treatment of their son as done Dudley more 
damage then good. 

Most of the kids as it seems to me that are in Slytherin are not 
defined bad because they are in Slytherin but because the house is 
adopted by the pure-blood supremacists which is actually the 
disabling factor within that house and not the individual talents of 
these kids. Draco did not reject his family in canon nor does he need 
to as I do not think something as drastic as Sirius did would be 
needed for him to set his life on to a different course and although 
his progress in canon was not earth shaking, a journey of a thousands 
steps begins with one step. 

Magpie:
> I'm also not sure why in your interpretation--unless I'm getting it 
> wrong--Snape suddenly has this death bed conversion to seeing that 
> it was all his fault and Harry is such a better person after a 
> lifetime of presumably seeing himself as more of a victim.
<snip>

Dana:
Well I did not mean to make it sound so black and white and I did not 
mean it in the sense of Snape seeing that it was all his fault but 
more in the sense that he showed Harry that he regrets not having 
done things differently. That he could have made different choices in 
life that he acknowledges that a lot of the pains he had were a 
result of his own choices (that he took responsibility for the 
choices he made). That he understood that they shared the love and 
pain for the same person and that their relationship could have been 
different if Snape had acknowledge that it was neither James nor 
Harry that had contributed to his losses in life. 

I just think it is unfair to say that Harry was the only one that 
needed to resolve his hatred for Snape or that is was unreasonable 
just because Snape helped him in secret. There would not have been 
any hate if there had not been any secrets in the first place.  
The memory sequence just give me the feel that Snape wanted Harry to 
forgive him for not having reach out to him and that he had failed to 
see that Harry was as much Lily's son as he was James's. To me Snape 
had been the instigator by immediately rejecting Harry as a person 
when he arrived at Hogwarts for the first time. He was the adult and 
to me he therefore was responsible for the ever expending animosity 
existing between them and he did nothing to resolve it.  

I am still expending my understanding of the text and just give my 
interpretations within a specific moment and not as a ready set 
opinion. For instance Snape might have shared the memories about 
Petunia because he wanted to let Harry see that he knew why Petunia 
had such distaste for the WW and that he therefore knew what Harry 
had endured in his pre-Hogwarts years because of it without 
specifically claiming having contributed to Petunia viewpoints. 

Magpie:
> -m (who thinks the superficial similarties between Harry and 
> Snape's lives for than anything point up how very fundamentally 
> different they are--Snape is Billy No Friends due to a combination 
> of his circumstances of birth and life and his personality (which 
> is influenced by same); Harry is a cool middle class kid 
> temporarily stuck living with idiots until he goes to Hogwarts.)

Dana: 
Well I disagree because essentially many of us do not have loots of 
friendships in life that really count just one or two people that are 
truly our best friends and Snape did have a friendship that mattered 
that lasted for years until one desire clashed with another and he 
could not have it both ways. I also do not agree that your 
personality or the circumstances of your birth define your chances in 
life, they will always be an influence but you are not defined by it 
if you chose not to let it define you. Your personality grows by the 
many experiences you encounter in life and by learning from your 
mistakes you become a better person. Not facing your mistakes is what 
keeps you from moving on because you can't learn anything if you 
never acknowledge something as a mistake you made. If you make a 
mistake you reflect, learn, pick yourself up and start anew. 

JMHO 

Dana