Compassionate hero (WAS Re: Appeal of the story to the reader)

[Zara]

No: HPFGUIDX 175721

> Nita:
> Hmm, good point (although why Harry *can't* comfort her is beyond 
me).

zgirnius:
Oh, I don't know, I could see not wanting to continue a highly 
personal discussion in front of my best friends, one of whom is the 
older brother of my girlfriend. I suppose he could tell them to get 
lost, though Ron might not. <g>

> Nita:
> Perhaps it just irks me because I used to be quite weepy myself, 
and I
> don't get why a physiological reaction should be perceived as
> "selfish". 

zgirnius:
I am still quite weepy, personally, under the right circumstances. I 
don't think this makes me selfish, and I quite agree that it does not 
seem to be something over which one has all that much control. But 
Harry does not think to himself that Cho is selfish, and therefore 
Ginny is morally superior, and this is why he loves her. He is just 
uncomfortable around a weepy girlfriend, and therefore prefers Ginny 
to Cho in this respect. This preference is an established fact about 
Harry's character, we were shown that discomfort in OotP. Harry's 
thought is just about one way in which Ginny is the right girl for 
Harry. Ginny's non-weepiness also exists in canon pre-DH.
 
> > zgirnius:
> > Harry does comply with every request of the dying Snape, 
> > including the last one, which is of no practical value to 'the 
> > cause'. (Oh, man, that scene got to me...)
> 
> Nita:
> Yeah, it was an intense scene. Poor Snape :/

zgirnius:
I guess our mileage varies. The whole scene is very non-explicit 
about what, exactly, Harry is feeling. He thinks of Snape as "the man 
he hated", but surely Harry would know it if what he was feeling was 
any of grim satisfaction, hate, vengeful glee, etc. These are the 
emotions he has expected to feel at this moment, a moment he has 
longed for:

> HBP, "The White Tomb"
"And if I meet Severus Snape along the way, so much the better for 
me, so much the worse for him."

zgirnius:
Or earler the same day...

> DH, "The Sacking of Severus Snape":
> Hatred boiled up in Harry at the sight of him

zgirnius:
The mysterious feeling that causes Harry to go into the room, and to 
remove his cloak is not identified, but I think it is horror at what 
he has seen, despite his feelings about Snape. I just don't see what 
else it could be - I attribute Harry's own obliviousness to confusion 
(I can't possibly be feeling sorry for Snape!). If he is horrified, 
and wants to do something to alleviate Snape's suffering, complying 
with Snape's dying wishes would be the only avenue, and that is 
precisely what Harry does, by kneeling down, by collecting his 
memories, and by looking into his eyes as he dies. (And I do think it 
is effective. As I see it, Snape is far happier to die secure in the 
knowledge that he has not, after all, failed, and gazing into that 
set of green eyes. Which may not be very happy, but that's Snape. 
*sigh*) But yeah, whatever it is, is not spelled out.

> Nita:
> Eh? How does that work? "I don't like these guys, so I'll randomly 
do
> as this kid says while they break my bones"? IMO, he granted Harry a
> favour.

zgirnius:
Griphook was already a captive of Greybeard and Co., and already in 
poor physical condition when the Trio were captured. (Oh, aside, 
Harry blundered. I had forgotten that the reason they were captured 
at all is that Harry got irritated and used the word Voldemort).  
Greybeard took Griphook to his apparent ally Bellatrix together with 
Harry and the others. Also, Griphook already has issues with the DEs, 
because they are interfering at Gringott's. And he knows the DEs need 
to ask - so they can't tell whether he is lying or not.
"These guys are torturing me, and apparently if I lie to them about 
the sword, this kid thinks it will screw them over. Gee, I think I 
will, on the off-chance he is right! Bastards."

Incidentally, I believe his choice saved his life. If Bella knew the 
sword was real, she would think they had been in the vault and would 
have killed him, instead of relaxing and giving him one final parting 
gift of a knife slash across his face before calling Voldemort. Did 
he have some inkling of the stakes? Perhaps. 

> Nita:
> It's hard to tell without looking into his head, IMO. Wouldn't it be
> extremely difficult for him, just like being kind is difficult -
> because he's too defensive and miserable?

zgirnius:
As you say, hard to tell. But I tend to think there is more going on 
in that head than seeps out. It's possible the compassionate-seeming 
things he does are actually done out of a rational calculation that 
they are 'right' a la Spock, but he does seem to be a rather 
emotional guy under the exterior. Sort of an aside in this 
discussion, though.

> Nita:
> Well, Harry probably thinks what Draco is thinking, but I doubt that
> he feels what Draco is feeling. Or that he would ever welcome that
> sort of feeling. 

zgirnius:
He is almost in the flames himself. Ron is urging him to get out 
before it is too late. This is not about Draco's emotional pain, but 
his physical danger/pain, which I think Harry apprehends perfectly, 
and wishes to alleviate. 

Anyway, Draco's emotional situation at this point as I see it, is 
frantic worry about his parents. Both are without their wands, with 
Voldemort, and on his shit list. This makes his situation not unlike 
that of Xenophilius Lovegood, for whom Harry does what he can. He has 
the following thought about old Xeno:

> DH, "The Tale of the Three Brothers": 
> "They will be here in a moment. I must save Luna. I cannot lose 
Luna. You must not leave."
> He spread his arms in front of the staircase, and Harry had a 
sudden vision of his mother doing the same thing in front of his crib.

zgirnius:
It seems to me that he gets it. And when the DEs show up immediately 
afterwards, Harry makes sure they see him, in the hope that it will 
make them go easier on Lovegood than in they believed he had summoned 
them on a false alarm.

Draco's parents Harry cannot help, except by defeating Voldemort. 
Which he is on the process of doing. So he cannot do anything about 
the emotional situation, which I think he also understands.
 
> Nita:
> Again, I wasn't trying to say anything about Harry with that, but
> rather about the way the story is built. I wonder if JKR thinks that
> perhaps Draco wouldn't "deserve" being saved if he hadn't played 
that
> part earlier.

zgirnius:
OK. I also just wanted an excuse to rave about Draco. I did in an 
earlier post, but noone bit. Persistence!

I think she figures he deserves to be saved for trying to save Goyle, 
myself. In addition to that thing earlier, Draco also lowered his 
wand on the Tower in HBP. I think all three things make 
him 'deserving'. Perhaps also his feelings about Charity Burbage and 
having to torture people, I don't know. But Harry does rescue 
nondeserving people (Dudley, or so he thinks). 

> Nita:
> *nods* And, as sistermagpie said, all that shifted blame simply
> disappeared somehow. I have no idea what Harry feels about Sirius'
> death now, do you? Oh, wait. Sirius said it didn't hurt and he 
seemed
> OK. I guess that takes care of the problem. Hmm :/

zgirnius:
No, I think the next bit of the conversation to which you refer takes 
care of the problem.

> DH, "The Forest Again":
> "I didn't want you to die," Harry said. These words came without 
volition. "Any of you. I'm sorry-"

zgirnius:
And then Lupin agrees he is sorry too, and the other three all 
confirm that they will stay with him. "We are a part of you. 
Invisible to anyone else," Sirius says to him. So basically, Harry 
now knows that Sirius himself does not blame him. There is no reason 
for him to continue to carry a load of guilt.

I also think that over time it had gotten less anyway. I can't find 
the quote, but I recall Harry described Sirius as 'reckless' at a 
point in the book. This suggests he was already beginning to take a 
more balanced view of the events. (And of course, again, while Harry 
did make a mistake, and did feel badly about both the possibloe ansd 
actually outcomes of that mistake, Sirius's death was more the fault 
of Bella and Voldemort.) And he sort of lost interest in blaming 
Snape for that when he had a nice, traitorou murder to hang in him 
instead. (At least, it does not get mentioned at the end of HBP, or 
in DH that I can recall).

> Nita:
> Well, I don't know what you think about interviews, but JKR did say
> "Griphook was wrong - Gryffindor did not 'steal' the sword, not 
unless
> you are a goblin fanatic and believe that all goblin-made objects
> really belong to the maker." (
> http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2007/0730-bloomsbury-chat.html )

zgirnius:
Rowling is a human. <g>

It does not really answer the question, though. All this means is 
that Godric paid for the sword in the human manner, something I did 
not doubt in the first place. It remains possible the goblin who took 
the payment, took it thinking he was selling it goblin-style, to use 
during the purchaser's lifetime.

> Nita:
> On a certain level, the HP series turned out similar, and that was a
> surprise to me. I had expected all human characters except Voldemort
> to be fully human, in the sense that Harry should be able to relate 
to
> them. I'm not interested in heavy-handed moralizing, but I do think
> it's important to understand how minds, including your own, work, in
> order to make good decisions. I believe it's an essential part of
> growing up. Apparently, JKR didn't agree, leaving me a little 
confused
> after all the build-up.

zgirnius:
Not all real life humans can relate to all other real-life humans 
poerfectly. Harry is not deficient in this area. He does get enough 
to understand lots of characters on some functioning level, I think. 
He got that Draco did not want to kill or torture anyone. He got that 
Draco felt cornered, and worried about his family. 

But the reason I don't get the Tom and Jerry feeling is because *I* 
can relate to the other real-life humans. Even (especially?) 
the "Others", the Slytherins we were 'supposed to' think were bad 
guys (some really were, at various points in their existence): Cissy, 
Draco, Regulus, Snape, Lucius. (Not Bella, sorry. I think Azkaban 
unhinged her.) Oh, and I suppose Peter, though in most posts 
where "Others" are discussed, people seem to be thinking mainly 
Slytherins.